Lost Champions League Final, would appreciate dissection from the experts

Hi all, I just came off what started off as a strong start to a champions league final, that ended in absolute disaster. I need help to figure out what I did wrong.

I started out in a 4-5-1 Flat formation against a classic 4-4-2. Possession vs counterattack.

In the 11th minute, I scored off a corner. The opposition reacted by matching my 4-5-1 Flat formation. In response, seeing that he was attempting to play longer passes, I dropped one MC into DMC (his natural position anyway). Things were so far going well.

This is where everything went terribly south. I conceded a yellow card penalty and then a second goal, then another yellow card penalty (he missed). Both yellows were from my midfielders.

My team ended up with ratings in the FIVES, that is how bad they played. This in spite of the fact that I had a slight (1.5) higher average starting 11 than my opponent. I can accept losing a match against someone who is close in level to me. But for my players to collectively crap themselves in such an embarrassing manner is mind boggling. I can only conclude that I used bad reaction tactics but I can't understand what.

In contrast, his entire midfield line ended the game in the 8's and 9's, even though they weren't stronger than my midfield.

Please enlighten me! Thank you!

My tactics: Normal stance, mixed passing, counter off, hard tackling (4-5-1 flat -> 4-1-4-1)

His tactics(my educated guess): Counterattack, long balls, then switched to mixed balls (4-4-2 -> 4-5-1 flat)

Stats (i'm on the right)

Attachment 73254
Attachment 73255

Hard Tackling increases chances of yellow cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yayannpaul

Hard Tackling increases chances of yellow cards.

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I'm aware of that, but based on how bad my entire team played against a team I'm not weaker than, surely that wasn't the true problem?

I cannot really emphasize enough that going to a final with hard tackling especially from beginning is really really really bad decision.
I never use hard tackling.
There are some refs in some games that give easy yellow-red cards. If you had fallen in such case then you would play with 10 players from 10'.
Your fouls were 16 against 10 , maybe your AM also pointed out this that you should stop giving so many fouls to the oppo.

Also I see that your defenders have no aerial abality or defensive wall.
No defensive wall but you chose to give so many fouls, bad decision again.(although you did not conceded a free kick)
Check you oppo's defenders they all have SAs, that could help him.
Maybe next season you could work on that.

So short story long.
Hard tackling was bad decision and it seems key factor especially for the penalties.
You both played for 90' minutes with evenly counter formations.
Oppo had few more shots on target which increased his chance to score.

Also I doubt the "Things were so far going well."
Don't trust live animations. Trust statistics and ratings.
What were the stats at that point? What were your players ratings?
Maybe things were getting bad you just did not check stats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cloverfield

I cannot really emphasize enough that going to a final with hard tackling especially from beginning is really really really bad decision.
I never use hard tackling.
There are some refs in some games that give easy yellow-red cards. If you had fallen in such case then you would play with 10 players from 10'.
Your fouls were 16 against 10 , maybe your AM also pointed out this that you should stop giving so many fouls to the oppo.

Also I see that your defenders have no aerial abality or defensive wall.
No defensive wall but you chose to give so many fouls, bad decision again.(although you did not conceded a free kick)
Check you oppo's defenders they all have SAs, that could help him.
Maybe next season you could work on that.

So short story long.
Hard tackling was bad decision and it seems key factor especially for the penalties.
You both played for 90' minutes with evenly counter formations.
Oppo had few more shots on target which increased his chance to score.

Also I doubt the "Things were so far going well."
Don't trust live animations. Trust statistics and ratings.
What were the stats at that point? What were your players ratings?
Maybe things were getting bad you just did not check stats.

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Thanks for the feedback Clover:

- Tackling: I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. You say you never go with hard tackling, but I normally go with it because I've discovered that even just normal tackling results in a lot more goals conceded even if I have good defenders and a theoretically good formation from my research. I suppose I should take your advice and try normal tackling the next time I'm in a final but in normal play I would probably stick with hard.

- Special Abilities: It's true that my players have no Wall SA. However my defenders all rate with skills in the 140-150%+ range. I would think that should be good enough...is it not? Are SA's that critical to success?

- Regarding the stats at the time I opened the scoring: Yes my players were rating solid high 6's to mid 7's at the time I scored and statistically I had a bit more in the shots department. This is why I feel like besides hard tackling, some other tactics change I made in response to my opponent's switch to 4-5-1 Flat was bad, and I'm hoping someone with experience can tell me what that is.

Mind if I ask, what your training bonuses, win bonus and condition was at kickoff?

This is just for the sake of trying to eliminate variables besides tactics that can impact match results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pcmacdaniel

Mind if I ask, what your training bonuses, win bonus and condition was at kickoff?

This is just for the sake of trying to eliminate variables besides tactics that can impact match results.

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Thanks pcmacdaniel, I was at max bonus and condition, as well as max morale. I primarily used Possession as my active game bonus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephen Lam

- Tackling: I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. You say you never go with hard tackling, but I normally go with it because I've discovered that even just normal tackling results in a lot more goals conceded even if I have good defenders and a theoretically good formation from my research. I suppose I should take your advice and try normal tackling the next time I'm in a final but in normal play I would probably stick with hard.

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It is quite a risk hard tackling, and I do not think it is the key factor of not conceding the goal.
You could try this against an unbeatable oppo where risks can be taken, but not against an even oppo.
Tell us in general what are your defense tacticts and usual formations you use, maybe it is something else that causes the conceded goals

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephen Lam

- Special Abilities: It's true that my players have no Wall SA. However my defenders all rate with skills in the 140-150%+ range. I would think that should be good enough...is it not? Are SA's that critical to success?

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I cannot say it is critical, but I see the SA icon blinking many times during corners and free kicks of an oppo.
Especially defensive walls reduce the probability of a free kick.
You wont stop conceding such goals but they will get reduced.
At least for me it did help.
But if you cannot afford it or cant find it in a market, then yes it is a good enhancement but not a necessity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephen Lam

- Regarding the stats at the time I opened the scoring: Yes my players were rating solid high 6's to mid 7's at the time I scored and statistically I had a bit more in the shots department. This is why I feel like besides hard tackling, some other tactics change I made in response to my opponent's switch to 4-5-1 Flat was bad, and I'm hoping someone with experience can tell me what that is.

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I do not believe it was a matter of tactics as you used both balanced and countering formations.
In general the match from statistics, ratings (at least when game was draw) and formations seems could end to a draw.
This means that minor factors start playing each role.
That's why I believe hard tackling was the minor-key factor for this game, and the 2 penalties is a good proof for that

The only problem was, in my opinion, the hard tackling. The penalties show this very well. Thats why i hate Hard tackling

Hi I'm playing a team with a 4-1-2-2 formation. What's the best formation to play against this team. Also this team is stronger than mine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cloverfield

It is quite a risk hard tackling, and I do not think it is the key factor of not conceding the goal.
You could try this against an unbeatable oppo where risks can be taken, but not against an even oppo.
Tell us in general what are your defense tacticts and usual formations you use, maybe it is something else that causes the conceded goals

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I used normal attack/defense posture. Normally I go with 4-5-1 V style as my favorite formation, but in this case due to the opponent playing classic 4-4-2 I went to 4-5-1 Flat in an attempt to control the midfield and possession. I went with Mixed passing as well as I found that works better than short when the opponent doesn't have a DMC/DML/DMR, and avoided long because I already have played this opponent before and knows he loves the counter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cloverfield

I do not believe it was a matter of tactics as you used both balanced and countering formations.
In general the match from statistics, ratings (at least when game was draw) and formations seems could end to a draw.
This means that minor factors start playing each role.
That's why I believe hard tackling was the minor-key factor for this game, and the 2 penalties is a good proof for that

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Hmm but if it was only the penalties that were the cause, then only my players who conceded the penalties would have bad ratings right? But if you look at my team ratings, almost everyone played horrible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stephen Lam

Thanks pcmacdaniel, I was at max bonus and condition, as well as max morale. I primarily used Possession as my active game bonus.

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What I think caused you to get beat, was the programming code of the game engine. Some seasons it seems to favor offense, other defense. My team this season was better with defense + counter-attacks, so I suspect teams using Defense + counters, had the advantage over normal and attacking setups this seasons, when everything else was equal.

I had been playing with normal and occasionally switching to attack. I was still doing decent, since I reached the cup final, but there were some losses and draws along the way, before eventually losing to a 4-1-4-1 in the cup final. After this I switch my 4-5-1v from normal mentality to defense + counters and my goal production shot up tremendously, including 7-0 and 5-0 wins in the last 2 CL matches. Whereas when using normal/attack, my offense was stagnant more often.

Since u say your opponent likes counter, did u turn on offside?

In my opinion, formations is just 20%, orders are 80% for tactics. For games that i am watching, i usually tried the 2 end of the spectrum.
Attacking + high press + offside + short pass
&
Hard defend + low press + mixed/long ball + counter

Depending on the opposition quality vs mine, i usually picked either one and start the game. If things going well, i dont change it. If doesn't, then i switch to the opposite.

And possibly he got better players than you. Some players can have 8-9-9-8-10 ratings against weak opponent/inactive/abandoned teams but turn up 5 or 6 during important games,..Over the course of a season, i usually take note of my players rating against equal/big teams/active teams.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by woopypooky

Since u say your opponent likes counter, did u turn on offside?

In my opinion, formations is just 20%, orders are 80% for tactics. For games that i am watching, i usually tried the 2 end of the spectrum.
Attacking + high press + offside + short pass
&
Hard defend + low press + mixed/long ball + counter

Depending on the opposition quality vs mine, i usually picked either one and start the game. If things going well, i dont change it. If doesn't, then i switch to the opposite.

And possibly he got better players than you. Some players can have 8-9-9-8-10 ratings against weak opponent/inactive/abandoned teams but turn up 5 or 6 during important games,..Over the course of a season, i usually take note of my players rating against equal/big teams/active teams.

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I kept offside trap disabled because his strikers were much faster than my central defenders (as is often the case).

In terms of player stats I had an overall small edge in my starting 11. How does player rating factor into it?