Counter formation logic

So I spend alot of time thinking about counter formations and what seems like it should work against various formations. When I apply what seems logical to me in games I often do not have good results.

So just to take a single example. 4-4-2 narrow diamond is said to be good against 4-4-2 normal. Why?

the differences in the formations are one has an attacking mid and a defensive mid. The other has neither of those, but instead has two wide mids.

Logically to me the defensive mid of the diamond is marking nothing other than maybe cutting out some passes of the opponents 2 cms. the attacking mid yes is good as it's being marked by nothing specific.

But on the other side the diamond has no wide mids helping with defensive duties so the standard wide mids, have a free run at the diamonds full backs and are backed up in attack by it's full backs.

The diamond has no attack on the flanks whereas the standard does.

You kow, you make a pretty good point. Following that logic, a classic 4-4-2 set to attack through the flanks is actually a counter to the narrow diamond. It has every attacking player accounted for and exploits the narrow diamond's greatest weakness, its lack of wing presence.

To me it seems that the way to beat a 4-4-2 is to overpower and dominate its midfield, and out of the sugested formations I'd say the butterfly does it best and the narrow diamond does it worst.

I'd also like to see the logic behind listing the narrow diamond as a counter to the 4-4-2.

good thread. I'll come up tomorrow with some thoughts.

Great thread and one I am very interested in, I have found that the narrow diamond no longer works against 4-4-2, try 4-5-1V I have had success with this or 3-5-2

well, its a good thread guyz...
so what do u think about the counter for Narrow Wide...??

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Originally Posted by Michael Unonk

well, its a good thread guyz...
so what do u think about the counter for Narrow Wide...??

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What Narrow Wide?

3-5-2

Wide Narrow is like this

DL-DC-DC-DR
DMC
ML--------MR
AMC
ST-ST

I have tried using 3-5-2 as stated but it seem doesnt work well, I lost 2-0 and have to comeback later

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Originally Posted by Michael Unonk

Wide Narrow is like this

DL-DC-DC-DR
DMC
ML--------MR
AMC
ST-ST

I have tried using 3-5-2 as stated but it seem doesnt work well, I lost 2-0 and have to comeback later

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I call it Wide Diamond. It doesnt make sense for me when you called it Wide narrow, lol. But, It aint impotant though.

I never have some trouble with Wide Diamond as I always win so far by using Narrow Diamond whether the opponent's stronger or weaker.

These counter formations are not 100% to work but they are known to work as players have had success with them, their are other factors like quality and team orders factored in as well but my advice would be use them as a guide if you are not sure yourself but don't blame anybody that suggests them to you as they are only trying to help.

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Originally Posted by Der Panzer

I call it Wide Diamond. It doesnt make sense for me when you called it Wide narrow, lol. But, It aint impotant though.

I never have some trouble with Wide Diamond as I always win so far by using Narrow Diamond whether the opponent's stronger or weaker.

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what formation do u use and what orders...??

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Originally Posted by Michael Unonk

what formation do u use and what orders...??

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4-1-2-1-2 Narrow Diamond with normal, mixed focus, mixed passing, normal tackling, own half, zonal marking, no counterattck and no offside trap, no arrow besides blue arrow for 2 DC
Hope this help you

yeh i usually use wide diamond to counter narrow diamond. Im playing narrow diamond today and going for 4-1-4-1 against a stronger opponent, ill let u know how it goes :)

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Originally Posted by Der Panzer

4-1-2-1-2 Narrow Diamond with normal, mixed focus, mixed passing, normal tackling, own half, zonal marking, no counterattck and no offside trap, no arrow besides blue arrow for 2 DC
Hope this help you

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Should you not be focusing your passing through the middle with short passing?

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Originally Posted by herdo

Should you not be focusing your passing through the middle with short passing?

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all mixed works for me better somehow as narrow diamond is one of the middle based formation.

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Originally Posted by Der Panzer

all mixed works for me better somehow as narrow diamond is one of the middle based formation.

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Fair enough dude :D

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Originally Posted by Moel

So I spend alot of time thinking about counter formations and what seems like it should work against various formations. When I apply what seems logical to me in games I often do not have good results.

So just to take a single example. 4-4-2 narrow diamond is said to be good against 4-4-2 normal. Why?

the differences in the formations are one has an attacking mid and a defensive mid. The other has neither of those, but instead has two wide mids.

Logically to me the defensive mid of the diamond is marking nothing other than maybe cutting out some passes of the opponents 2 cms. the attacking mid yes is good as it's being marked by nothing specific.

But on the other side the diamond has no wide mids helping with defensive duties so the standard wide mids, have a free run at the diamonds full backs and are backed up in attack by it's full backs.

The diamond has no attack on the flanks whereas the standard does.

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For me there are no counter formations. What is widely touted as counter could fall flat if tactical instructions are wrong. To beat the narrow diamond by attacking the flanks, you need to first nullify their threat through the middle by using an anchorman. so, rather than 4-4-2, in which you cannot double up down the flanks as you're left short-handed in the middle, just replace one of the strikers with an anchorman(DMC) and you have a gameplan. Whether it works depends on several variables but it is a plan and for me, it's about having a plan rather than looking at the scoreline to determine what works and what doesn't. Last season, i had the perfect gameplan against 3-2(wb)-2-1-2 in the CL quarters second leg away, having drawn the first at home. Playing on the counter and attacking the flanks, i created 20+ chances, over twice as many as the opponent but got done by a goal from a free kick by his scout fk specialist. It might not always work but for me having a template is half the job and in football sometimes that is all a manager can do! Even a Mourinho cannot control everything. Set the team out and leave the result in the lap of the football gods.

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Originally Posted by herdo

yeh i usually use wide diamond to counter narrow diamond. Im playing narrow diamond today and going for 4-1-4-1 against a stronger opponent, ill let u know how it goes :)

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normal mentality, forward runs on all wide players, counter attack, zonal, and own half pressing. If you lose, I'll eat my hat!

I kinda disagree with the term "counter formation". You don't counter formations, you match the opponent tactically. Part of this process are formations, but it's not even the most important in some cases.

To give an example, is opponent attacking with 3 STs? (lets say 3-4-3, 4-3-3, 4-2-1-3, etc)

The counter logic is to use zonal marking and counter attacks. Then, you could add 2 banks of 4 (and therefore to follow a 4-4-2, 4-1-3-1-1, 4-2-2-2, etc) and defend deeply (by putting some blue arrows and setting mentality).

Is the opponent attacking down both flanks with wingers + fullbacks? (4-4-2, wide diamond, 4-1-4-1, 4-2-2W-2, etc)

The counter logic is to stop crosses and to do that you must force fullbacks to go through middle. So, enhance your flanks, put blue on ML/MR or use DML/DMR and attack through the middle. Then you see your squad and decide. 3 defenders + DML/DMR, 5 defenders + blue arrows on ML/MR and rew arrow on MC, 4 defenders + DML/DMR, an AMC, etc.

Is the opponent focusing on ball possession? (eg 3-1-4-1-1, 3-5-2, 4-5-1, 4-1-4-1, etc)

In that case he tries to win as much ball possession as possible by packing the midfield. Again, the counter logic is to defend deep. 3 banks of 4 again? Viable. Blue arrows on some midfielders and defensive mentality + counterattacks will work.

Is the opponent using some modern, attacking christmass tree formation with lots of ACs?

The counter logic is to not allow him to reach the ball to your own half. Whole pitch pressing+ counterattacks. You shouldn't care too much about your formation, keep playing as you normally do. Just press allover the pitch. Then, if you have strong DMs, use 1 or 2. But I don't understand why A or B formation "counters" 4-3-2-1 or 4-3-1-2 when you use own half pressing. It doesn't make sense and I doubt it will in the future.

You need an extra goal on 88' +?

Don't go extra attacking, 4STs and pray. Make maybe 1 substitution if you can (to put an AMC, MC, ST, or even DMC instead of DC), attacking mentality+ offside trap and take advantage of your DCs. Put red arrow on your central DC (or DMC). A small detail that can change the game.

Do you have to defend against width? (strong ML/MR, AMR/AML: eg 4-4-2, 3-4-1-2, 4-2-3-1, diamond wide, etc)

You can't counter 100%. When wingers come forward it's too much about decisions. You need good defenders. That's all. You can put DML/DMR, defend with 4, etc but, unless you have good defenders (good tackling+ positioning) you won't avoid some bad situations.

That's how simplified real football works and that's some aspects that can be useful in Top Eleven. At least that's how I understand it and that's how I play.

Formations are part of tactics but, we shouldn't talk about "counter formation" nor even "counter tactic" but, about "counter A or B team".

finally, here is the result.. thanks to everyone with great ideas...

Attachment 6384

finally, here is the result.. thanks to everyone with great ideas...

Attachment 6384

yeh i countered 4-4-2 with narrow diamond n won 3 nil. Was only 2 quality of a difference

Well Today was the first day I decided not to counter anymore mainly coz of a bad start to the season and I won both matches today, yay!!

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Originally Posted by reddeviljohn

Well Today was the first day I decided not to counter anymore mainly coz of a bad start to the season and I won both matches today, yay!!

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Well done. You're a great example. Big teams just play the football they know and win. They "counter" by changing 1 player and a few orders. They don't change 8 formations in 8 matches.

Thanks your detailed reply to an earlier post was an inspiration!

The reason for this is because 4-4-2 normal has an alley up the middle that 4-1-2-1-2 (4-4-2 narrow diamond) takes advantage of. 4-5-1 VStyle & 3-5-2 VStyle have worked well for me in the past. You could also, use 3-1-4-2 with up arrows on the ML/MR. This adds more to your possesion but also, reduces your offensive strength.

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Originally Posted by Rob8

For me there are no counter formations. What is widely touted as counter could fall flat if tactical instructions are wrong. To beat the narrow diamond by attacking the flanks, you need to first nullify their threat through the middle by using an anchorman. so, rather than 4-4-2, in which you cannot double up down the flanks as you're left short-handed in the middle, just replace one of the strikers with an anchorman(DMC) and you have a gameplan. Whether it works depends on several variables but it is a plan and for me, it's about having a plan rather than looking at the scoreline to determine what works and what doesn't. Last season, i had the perfect gameplan against 3-2(wb)-2-1-2 in the CL quarters second leg away, having drawn the first at home. Playing on the counter and attacking the flanks, i created 20+ chances, over twice as many as the opponent but got done by a goal from a free kick by his scout fk specialist. It might not always work but for me having a template is half the job and in football sometimes that is all a manager can do! Even a Mourinho cannot control everything. Set the team out and leave the result in the lap of the football gods.

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i think u don,t have to play with DMC to win against the narrow diamond,.... in my opinion, if 4-4-2 plays against the narrow diamond, it will depend on the teams quality,.. if the 4-4-2 have good flank players, he will score,... and also if the narrow diamond have gd mc,s and AMC, he also will score,....so generally,... every manager must use the formation that suit his best players,... i.e....it,s not logic to play narrow diamond while ur MC and MC,s are 2 stars !!!!!!!