Counter formation logic

[Michael Unonk]

I call it Wide Diamond. It doesnt make sense for me when you called it Wide narrow, lol. But, It aint impotant though.

I never have some trouble with Wide Diamond as I always win so far by using Narrow Diamond whether the opponent's stronger or weaker.

what formation do u use and what orders...??

[Der Panzer]

what formation do u use and what orders...??

4-1-2-1-2 Narrow Diamond with normal, mixed focus, mixed passing, normal tackling, own half, zonal marking, no counterattck and no offside trap, no arrow besides blue arrow for 2 DC
Hope this help you

[herdo]

yeh i usually use wide diamond to counter narrow diamond. Im playing narrow diamond today and going for 4-1-4-1 against a stronger opponent, ill let u know how it goes

[herdo]

4-1-2-1-2 Narrow Diamond with normal, mixed focus, mixed passing, normal tackling, own half, zonal marking, no counterattck and no offside trap, no arrow besides blue arrow for 2 DC
Hope this help you

Should you not be focusing your passing through the middle with short passing?

[Der Panzer]

Should you not be focusing your passing through the middle with short passing?

all mixed works for me better somehow as narrow diamond is one of the middle based formation.

[herdo]

all mixed works for me better somehow as narrow diamond is one of the middle based formation.

Fair enough dude

[Rob8]

So I spend alot of time thinking about counter formations and what seems like it should work against various formations. When I apply what seems logical to me in games I often do not have good results.

So just to take a single example. 4-4-2 narrow diamond is said to be good against 4-4-2 normal. Why?

the differences in the formations are one has an attacking mid and a defensive mid. The other has neither of those, but instead has two wide mids.

Logically to me the defensive mid of the diamond is marking nothing other than maybe cutting out some passes of the opponents 2 cms. the attacking mid yes is good as it's being marked by nothing specific.

But on the other side the diamond has no wide mids helping with defensive duties so the standard wide mids, have a free run at the diamonds full backs and are backed up in attack by it's full backs.

The diamond has no attack on the flanks whereas the standard does.

For me there are no counter formations. What is widely touted as counter could fall flat if tactical instructions are wrong. To beat the narrow diamond by attacking the flanks, you need to first nullify their threat through the middle by using an anchorman. so, rather than 4-4-2, in which you cannot double up down the flanks as you're left short-handed in the middle, just replace one of the strikers with an anchorman(DMC) and you have a gameplan. Whether it works depends on several variables but it is a plan and for me, it's about having a plan rather than looking at the scoreline to determine what works and what doesn't. Last season, i had the perfect gameplan against 3-2(wb)-2-1-2 in the CL quarters second leg away, having drawn the first at home. Playing on the counter and attacking the flanks, i created 20+ chances, over twice as many as the opponent but got done by a goal from a free kick by his scout fk specialist. It might not always work but for me having a template is half the job and in football sometimes that is all a manager can do! Even a Mourinho cannot control everything. Set the team out and leave the result in the lap of the football gods.

[Rob8]

yeh i usually use wide diamond to counter narrow diamond. Im playing narrow diamond today and going for 4-1-4-1 against a stronger opponent, ill let u know how it goes

normal mentality, forward runs on all wide players, counter attack, zonal, and own half pressing. If you lose, I'll eat my hat!

[Master Tactician]

I kinda disagree with the term "counter formation". You don't counter formations, you match the opponent tactically. Part of this process are formations, but it's not even the most important in some cases.

To give an example, is opponent attacking with 3 STs? (lets say 3-4-3, 4-3-3, 4-2-1-3, etc)

The counter logic is to use zonal marking and counter attacks. Then, you could add 2 banks of 4 (and therefore to follow a 4-4-2, 4-1-3-1-1, 4-2-2-2, etc) and defend deeply (by putting some blue arrows and setting mentality).

Is the opponent attacking down both flanks with wingers + fullbacks? (4-4-2, wide diamond, 4-1-4-1, 4-2-2W-2, etc)

The counter logic is to stop crosses and to do that you must force fullbacks to go through middle. So, enhance your flanks, put blue on ML/MR or use DML/DMR and attack through the middle. Then you see your squad and decide. 3 defenders + DML/DMR, 5 defenders + blue arrows on ML/MR and rew arrow on MC, 4 defenders + DML/DMR, an AMC, etc.

Is the opponent focusing on ball possession? (eg 3-1-4-1-1, 3-5-2, 4-5-1, 4-1-4-1, etc)

In that case he tries to win as much ball possession as possible by packing the midfield. Again, the counter logic is to defend deep. 3 banks of 4 again? Viable. Blue arrows on some midfielders and defensive mentality + counterattacks will work.

Is the opponent using some modern, attacking christmass tree formation with lots of ACs?

The counter logic is to not allow him to reach the ball to your own half. Whole pitch pressing+ counterattacks. You shouldn't care too much about your formation, keep playing as you normally do. Just press allover the pitch. Then, if you have strong DMs, use 1 or 2. But I don't understand why A or B formation "counters" 4-3-2-1 or 4-3-1-2 when you use own half pressing. It doesn't make sense and I doubt it will in the future.

You need an extra goal on 88' +?

Don't go extra attacking, 4STs and pray. Make maybe 1 substitution if you can (to put an AMC, MC, ST, or even DMC instead of DC), attacking mentality+ offside trap and take advantage of your DCs. Put red arrow on your central DC (or DMC). A small detail that can change the game.

Do you have to defend against width? (strong ML/MR, AMR/AML: eg 4-4-2, 3-4-1-2, 4-2-3-1, diamond wide, etc)

You can't counter 100%. When wingers come forward it's too much about decisions. You need good defenders. That's all. You can put DML/DMR, defend with 4, etc but, unless you have good defenders (good tackling+ positioning) you won't avoid some bad situations.

That's how simplified real football works and that's some aspects that can be useful in Top Eleven. At least that's how I understand it and that's how I play.

Formations are part of tactics but, we shouldn't talk about "counter formation" nor even "counter tactic" but, about "counter A or B team".

[Michael Unonk]

finally, here is the result.. thanks to everyone with great ideas...