Each order should be opposite? Where is the logic? Def counters attack? Anyone ever made evident tests?
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Each order should be opposite? Where is the logic? Def counters attack? Anyone ever made evident tests?
You can counter the formation but there is no way to know what orders the other player has, if he is playing attacking ,normal or defending. Usually when playing against stronger team I assume most people think the opponent will attack. Sometimes playing a defending game with CA has helped me against stronger teams and some times it has been a terrible mistake. IMO there is no way to give definitive answers.
The only thing you can counter is the opponents formation, if you believe the Counter-Formations tables.
You can only guess at what the opposition manager has asked his team to do, but usually you can guess from his initial formation, position in the competition, etc - if he is an active manager.
The difficult ones are the abandoned teams, some a******e ex-managers leave idiotic orders with their teams that the engine is only too ready to take advantage of, which is one of my theories about Troll results.
I ve read many times here that some managers counter the orders even during the match by 'analysing the opponent' and 'making wise decisions', thanks to 'tactical dominance'. I am not sure if the same managers speak of 'troll results' and 'conspiracy of nordeus' if they lose
About abandoned teams. Don't you remember that nordeus reseted all teams orders to very defensive, easy tackles+counter attack on (if i remember well). So all these teams and play in the same way. Allmost at the same time all that topics about troll results began.
No way that is the case of troll results, I think its something deeper. Always playing very defensively won't guarantee you the result, by that logic those 60% abandoned teams are impossible to beat and that's taking into account only one factor out of others that are supposedly important to win (preparation, morale , training, attending the match etc etc etc...).Quote:
Originally Posted by tomu741
My goodness they like to use big words like they are Guardiola or something. That's just common sense and adapting to the game, that's why we attend matches. If you don't see results of course you will try passing by both flanks or thru the middle hoping it will shake the game a little bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kto
There is no conspiracy of Nordeus but troll results exist and are the result of a bad engine.
We can read all enemy tactics, if you have the ability .
And we will also overthrow them , If the player you good , Tactical changes immediately promoted And vice versa
No result Nor troll . Because you are weak
Each one has its own belief what will counter what, but there is no lets say clear code what what will counter what. It is not clear like: 1 force of 5N is exerted on a body, say a kite, and you exert an opposite force of 5N to counter that force so that the kite stays in balance, or you put an even stronger force so that the kite moves into a certain direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kto
Only they know what they speak off, but to each his own as long as they are having fun and not harming anyone. But sure, it is bad to be in ignorance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kto
Each manager or group of managers has their own style of playing in this game. Some managers will set their formation to counter the opponents formations. Others will use almost the same formation or style but will do a few tweaks or adjustments for each match where they think is needed. Some managers will try to counter by others means (orders, arrows and so on). Some managers will use combinations of all methods.Quote:
Originally Posted by talisman
For me, the main problem is not abandoned team or active team, but the sense itself in this game. How can someone use what would be expected to be inappropriate combination of orders and still win in this game? It would be like a manager giving wrong instructions to his team, but the team still wins.
In the past, I made several tests using different accounts, where I was manager of many teams and I set those teams to play each other. I did not like what I saw. There was not much sense in terms of what were there as orders for both teams, what were the assistant manager's advice and what were the effects on the pitch based on changes done in game, including those done by following the assistant manager's advice. But those matches were friendly matches; so either friendly matches are simulated differently or there was a problem with the game at that time or the game is just '****'.
If a team goes inactive (with no manager and no logins) for a few months, the orders and the formation stay the same. If there is no login for a very long time (many months), then maybe the formation and the orders are put back to how it was on the first day. Those orders will be something like normal, mixed focus and passing, and the formation will be the one that there was initially. In the second case, that is not logged on for very long time, when the manager comes back, he gets a 6-star player having his second name (sort of manager: father; player: son) and the team is given some tokens and packs.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomu741
Clearly, something else is involved in this game that significantly affect match results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenoticFC
Bad engine and poor simulation. Some undesirable things may have happenned due to flaws, faults or errors, but some things may have happened due to intention itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenoticFC
The amount of football nonsense you can see in this game and the amount of deceiving things (I mean clear deceiving, like selling a player for example) shows how much some people at Nordeus know about football and what intentions they have.
For me, nowadays, I just accept things as they come in the game. Of course, I still try to find out reasons why this or that occurred, but I don't bother like before and take things so seriously that this game becomes a sort of pain. So, have fun as you are playing this game for fun and entertainment but not to add additional frustration, anger, stress and pain to your life. Life is already hard, and much harder for some people. If the game becomes a pain, then take a break from it,
Thank you so much you are soooo helpful. Do you have any practical advice to show since this is a forum to discuss these things or do you have a sixth sense that us mortals don't have.Quote:
Originally Posted by LacBuoc
Thanks a lot for the example, thats exactly what I meant. I guess I am too weak to ever reach the genius of some worldclass managersQuote:
Originally Posted by LacBuoc
Edit: Or was it sarcasm?
If you attend matches, you're playing against two things, the opposition manager and the match engine. The latter you can't do anything about - if it's decided to give you a bad match, then you're going to have a bad match.
This leaves the opposition manager. You can set your team up (formation, orders and tactics) to play against his team from the start of the match. If he doesn't attend, then you only need worry about what orders and tactics he has set, and after a short while you will be able to see what (according to the match play) they most likely are, and, if necessary. adjust accordingly.
If the opposition do turn up, then you will have to see what he does in match to play against you. He might change orders/tactics, sub players and/or change formation. If he changes formation, then you'll need to decide what changes you might need to make to counter them. If he changes orders/tactics, then hopefully, the match play will change and you can figure the changes out, and, if necessary, change to suit.
The match engine is the unknown quantity. We don't know actually what the engine has in it at the start of the match. The whole match play, goals, cards, injuries and then just plays it out with subtle changes to suit what the managers present have done; just a rough idea and then uses chance choices to affect the match play; or something in between. And Nordeus aren't going to let us know, either...
All I know is that I have affected match play by the actions I have performed in match. Sub a player who has got a yellow card, and count up how many times the sub has got a yellow card later - I've lost count, but by doing so I've prevented my side going down to 10 men. If the match engine had it programmed that I was supposed to play some of the match one man short, how does it react to not being able to do so? [...and yes, I've had the surprise red card for another player also...]
A goal down, 15 minutes to go? Change to hard attacking and you'll get at least one goal, in my experience. Did the match engine have that programmed in, or was it reacting to my order change?
I could list numerous times where
(a) I've had the satisfaction of being at a match, been in dire trouble and at least got something out of it because I've made changes and they've worked.
(b) I've had matches where nothing I've done has affected the match play or result in any way.
(c) And I've been badly Trolled, but usually when I've not been able to get to a match.
Please don't take the happiness of (a) away by telling me that whatever I'd done, I'd have got that result anyway...
true, just lost match by 1 goal, strikers FC(my team) 3 and oponent 4. overall percentage of both teams- my- 89% and his 54%+ sh*t formation with sh*t troll resultsQuote:
Originally Posted by talisman
I almost always sub the yellowed player, thats sort of a rule for me, just against headache.Quote:
Originally Posted by talisman
Thats all interesting stuff, thanks to all of you, but can one answer the main primitive question of the thread - what does order countering mean?
We can discuss what else is important, but I have read a plenty of times 'countering the orders' in sentences like 'you must not only counter the formation but also the orders' or 'after I figured out his orders I knew what to do? Some can say there is no order countering , it depends also on abc and xyz etcetc. So probably I hope for an answer from ORDER MASTERS
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...08b37c0485.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by LacBuoc
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You have addressed your question to talisman, but let me reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kto
Suppose you had to play a match versus a team. You checked the formation, the squad and so on, and then you adjusted your formation, starting line-up and so on as according to your knowledge and beliefs. The match starts. After 5 min, I tell you that the orders for that team are: hard attacking, mixed focus, mixed passing, force-counter attacks, offside trap and man-on-man marking. Tell me what orders will you use to counter those (some people might laugh)?
(1) There is no accurate way that will allow you to find out what orders and arrows an opposing team is using. You can guess some things before the match, and guess some more things during the match. But, time itself is very limited during a match, and suppose the you find out some things based on the highlights, those things could have been changed by the time the adjustments you made are considered by the game.
(2) Even if you knew the exact orders of an opponent, there is no clear code for countering orders that say: this will counter this or that will counter that. Some people might think or say, this team is using attacking, so use defensive and force-counter attacks. But what if this team is using defensive and counter-attacks what would you use then, normal? Going by that way of think, what would you use then in case of hard attacking, mixed focus, mixed passing, force-counter attacks, offside trap and man-on-man marking? Hard defending, force-counter attacks, then what? And what would you use in the case of hard defending and force-counter attacks then? How about against a team that uses normal mentality? At this point, you will probably laugh.
For me, from my experience so far in this game, it is about strategy (concerning formation, orders and arrows). Just like a manager in real life football uses strategies, where those strategies has a chance to fail, in this game also it is the same, just that there is less logic, less sense and more randomness (or whatever else) in this game.
I take countering orders to be, for example, using defensive against and attacking opponent, or vice versa. The first will give you a leg up if you are using counters, the second will nullify them if you are of greater quality in the appropriate area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kto
Other people will have different interpretations...
EDIT: Read up one reply, Tactician has gone into much more detail - I may disagree in minor details, but in essence I would agree with his summary.
That would be by football logic, and I won't disagree with that. But does this game follow this sort of logic too? This is the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by talisman
Cool, thanks guys, the question was to all. I forgot to mention the ARROWS but I guess you will answer the same blahblah :) I am really cool with ur answers, dont understand me wrong, I just have often seen confident ways what to do but seems like noone knows it really (maybe LacBuoc can teach me).
I ve read, that def counters attack. But then, how to counter def? With attack? :) Questions over questions. For my team this doesnt work though. I have been burnt few times by changing to def when I needed to defend a close score. That ALWAYS went bad, so I swore not to do it anymore. This season a difficult 1:0 against a weaker unmanaged team, not my strongest 11 on the field, 15 mins before end I decide to def and counter - bam 1:1. So I always play attack against attack, it works better, but there is no counter logic
https://forum.topeleven.com/top-elev...tml#post463971Quote:
Originally Posted by Kto
For the questions you are asking concerning what order will counter what order, like I said, there is no sort of code. You can go by football logic, but sometimes the game itself seems to go against football logic.
One more thing: what has worked for someone before might not work for you. Take into consideration, that the situations may be different despite that it could still be weak versus strong team, same formation versus same other formation and so on. What I mean is that your in-game situation itself is different. There are many things probably hidden in this game, for example things that affects the chance of success of a team for particular match, during a particular week for a particular season other than quality, formation and orders. The situation of the game itself seems to be changing with time. I even suspect that the preference of some orders by the game are sort of random instead of going by football logic. For example, suppose you play versus a team at home for knock-out leg using defensive mentality and you win by a large score, the logic would be to stick to that mentality (and even the other orders) for the next leg if the opponent did not change anything. But, sometimes you will find out that an attacking mentality is being preferred by the game for the away leg, despite that nothing has changed on the opponent's side in terms of orders and even despite that you won by a large score using a defensive mentality for the home match. If you take such occurring into consideration, it seems that the preferred mentality itself is random.
There is no logic in this game,only "experts" like LacBuoc knows how things work in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kto
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
that's an interesting subject for Mythbusters ;)Quote:
countering the orders?
https://forum.topeleven.com/top-elev...eleven-20.html
#193
I've mentioned countering orders a few times in my posts.
What it refers to is studying the previous match history of an opponent to figure out if the manager falls into a pattern.
However, what I think is the key question here is, can orders be countered? If so, what is the relationship between the orders that can be countered? Even if orders can be countered, are some of the orders, just cosmetic?
I base my strategy on counter orders do exist. And to provide evidence that this might work, I'll share my match history against a team both the OP (Kto) and I are familar with, it's the level 8 tanking CL winner, Panos FC. My association faced his 5 times in associations, and him and I went head-to-head in all 5 meetings. Panos had over 90% passes completed in all our head to head meetings, and played a Christmas Tree for the first 9 meetings. So the 90% completed means short passing, and i'm assuming attacking because Christmas Tree is an attacking formation. By the third meeting, I had picked up on the pattern.
1st meeting: He loaned out 8 starters, I played as 15% favorite. Won 6-2 and 5-2
2nd meeting: Bug weekend
3rd meeting: Me (140%-150%) Him; I won 2-0 and 1-0
4th meeting: Attachment 83713Attachment 83714
5th meeting: Me (141%-158%) Him. I won 4-0 and 2-1
Considering the quality gap, and my 5-1-0 head-to-head record as a double-digit underdog, it can't be troll. Once, maybe twice can be troll but not 6 out of 6. So it has to be something with the orders I applied that produced this success; which leads me to believe counter-orders do exist and there is a relationship between the passing type (long, mixed, short) and mentality combination, and that combination can be countered. Same for High Press/Counter-Attack(and maybe offsides) combination, but not sure how to tell if opponent is using these orders.
To add to this theory, I've lost the first leg to a signficantly lesser team in associations three times this season already. So can't pick up on pattern + having stronger team = 3 defeats. 50% 1st leg defeats as a favorite,(60% as significant favorite) probably too frequent an occurrence to be troll as well I would think. Once maybe, but 3 times idk.
P.S. Sorry I don't have more pictures for photographic proof; I didn't screenshot enough stuff.
Well, to know the mentality its easy, just one need to know the line of pressure where the other team starts the game.... defensive means he will come from defense, slowly and step by step from behind till your goal,,, Normal menans the game starts more advanced and attacking you will see the other team starting playing in your own field, this is what I always call -line of pressure-and why I advice always to have prepared 2 groups of orders, because depending of the scenario/simulation, key players that are the choosen ones selected by the system in one match etc.... is better start attacking from your own field...
long - short passing and mixed too is easy to know... the tackling soft-mixed-hard is related to the number of tackles, hard will mean more tackles, and here I tend to think (despite I aklways played NOrmal in all my 57 seasons) that VS better teams (+20%+AvQ) is better do soft tckles due the "posible differance" in the ability tackling so is posible have FK's against going hard, so reduce the number of tackles vs higher Q teams can be a advantadge. Oposite with weaker teams with who we have advantadge in the ability.
ooffside trap is obvious and counters too...
...so for me is not " counter orders", is more find a combination that give you advantadge depending of the scenario that the game creates... and ofc count =, I will not say if more or less, for example, attend and manage the team cause the simulation is another, switch some players... do a sub' ....
90% completed passes doesn't means automatically that he is playing short passing because i remember so many times when i was playing mix passes,the ass man telling me that was a great decision to play short passes and vice versa!
Good point. I didn't realize mixed could hit 90%. I think this guy was around 92% or so when we played usually. Wish I kept photos of the box scores so I could provide proof of match results and double-check.Quote:
Originally Posted by madflo19
Good points guys. I think over 90% passing should be short pass, or however you can see the tendence though.
I often just base desicions on real football which could be wrong. Even though its hard to translate the complexity of real football, real players have to stay very flexible.
Agree with the combos of orders which might have an influence. Against long ball no offside an arrows back is what I do in defence but absolutely no idea if its good. Sometimed it went right without and didnt work with.
What I also wonder about are arrows. No idea how it works, in defence I try to duplucate oppos attacking arrows (like blue on CD for the case ST has red), in attack avoid this duplicating (no arrow if suggest blue and red if suggest red).
Lately I often play through the middle (always flanks before), so I tried in few games against offensive LM and RM blue arrows with my offensive developed wingers, suggesting oppos having red, that went good so far, but who nows if it was because if this setting too.
