Leveling up and tanking

Straight to the business.

The fact that managers have to tank with ridiculous formations trying to stay on the last position in the League to avoid promotion (without any guarantees anyway, lol) is probably the biggest problem of Top Eleven now. It makes the game highly unrealistic and totally ugly.
Devs should really do something about it. It's an unnormal, weird, bizzare thing that getting a new level brings in fact more troubles than staying on the same one. It's a serious imperfection in the game. A gigantic flaw. A huge disadvantage. Someone in Nordeus has seriously ****ed up with this: level-up should be a reward, not a punishment.

Take a look on Diablo 3 leveling system, maybe you should do something like that? Maybe you should make two different types of levels, let's say, separate team and manager levels. You can make 5-8 team levels, with promotion exactly like it is today. And after a team hits the cap, it's manager starts to get manager levels without cap, with nice, but really tiny bonuses and without -20% every time she or he gets a manager level promotion. Motivate people to go to the last team level and stay there. Make it worth to play on the top team level. Make it pointless not to go to there.
Or maybe there is a completely different way to solve this? I don't know, but you, dear game designers of Top Eleven, have both skill and fantasy to wrap it right in your own way, so please do it.

I am just level 5 manager, but I already don't see any reason to go up. It will bring me only pain and frustration.

Thanks in advance!

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Originally Posted by Toxcatl

Straight to the business.

The fact that managers have to tank with ridiculous formations trying to stay on the last position in the League to avoid promotion (without any guarantees anyway, lol) is probably the biggest problem of Top Eleven now. It makes the game highly unrealistic and totally ugly.
Devs should really do something about it. It's an unnormal, weird, bizzare thing that getting a new level brings in fact more troubles than staying on the same one. It's a serious imperfection in the game. A gigantic flaw. A huge disadvantage. Someone in Nordeus has seriously ****ed up with this: level-up should be a reward, not a punishment.

Take a look on Diablo 3 leveling system, maybe you should do something like that? Maybe you should make two different types of levels, let's say, separate team and manager levels. You can make 5-8 team levels, with promotion exactly like it is today. And after a team hits the cap, it's manager starts to get manager levels without cap, with nice, but really tiny bonuses and without -20% every time she or he gets a manager level promotion. Motivate people to go to the last team level and stay there. Make it worth to play on the top team level. Make it pointless not to go to there.
Or maybe there is a completely different way to solve this? I don't know, but you, dear game designers of Top Eleven, have both skill and fantasy to wrap it right in your own way, so please do it.

I am just level 5 manager, but I already don't see any reason to go up. It will bring me only pain and frustration.

Thanks in advance!

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I have the same feelings but we can't do something... We just have to deal with them... I face up the disadvantage of my team after leveling up and i have to re-build my team from 0 again.... I didn't understood that reason yet, but i like this game more than before for some reason....

Good Luck.

Signed

Rafael(Rodos FC Manager)

I repeat: level-up is currently a punishment, when it should be a reward. The devs probably have a lot on their plate, but at least let me know, do you recognize this as a problem or not?

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Originally Posted by Toxcatl

I repeat: level-up is currently a punishment, when it should be a reward. The devs probably have a lot on their plate, but at least let me know, do you recognize this as a problem or not?

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Nop... not really... And level up isn't punishment at all... if they should decrease the way of leveling up and the same time giving rewards for each level there's no sense....

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Originally Posted by Rafael1991

Nop... not really... And level up isn't punishment at all... if they should decrease the way of leveling up and the same time giving rewards for each level there's no sense....

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I'm not talking about rewards, like, more money or tokens. I'm talking about the game design here. When a player (manager) gives an effort, he should be rewarded. In Top Eleven the reward is "promotion", but that's not a reward at all. It brings only problems. It's like, "ok, dude, you did great the last season, so now you are going to play against stronger opponents with relatively weaker team, and that's it". It is "the game is harder now, you eat ****" type of situation while it should be "the game is harder now, here is you candy". Capisce?
When you are getting a level in a RPG, you're gaining, let's say, a skill point, your character learn new abilities, gain access to new dungeons and new set of items. These are the rewards I'm talking about.
We got nothing like this in Top Eleven, and even worse: we're loosing the relative quality (in %) of our teams. More money is not a reward at all since players with the same relative quality costs more on higher level.
Answer me: why do I want to level-up in Top Eleven? what does it give to me?
Many managers I know ask themselves the same questions, and the answer is: nothing. So they tank with ridiculous formation just to stay on the same level. I wanted to do the same this season, but I finally got a nice League with strong opponents. But I definitely am going to intentionally lose the League in the next season.
I completely understand that the roots of this problem are deep, and changes would be enormous. But, in my opinion, it is a big problem nonetheless.

So I'd like to hear an official answer: do the devs recognize this as a problem and what are they going to do about it?

So... it's like in regular football, where the point of getting promoted is that you play better teams? Your players don't suddenly get better; they have to adjust to the new level of quality.

I still fail to see the problem here. :confused:

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Originally Posted by jcohen42

So... it's like in regular football, where the point of getting promoted is that you play better teams? Your players don't suddenly get better; they have to adjust to the new level of quality.

I still fail to see the problem here. :confused:

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In real football there is the ultimate challenge: to be the champion of the highest league. That's why teams are trying to climb up, and that gives them more rewards than problems, agree? Access to the best players, for example. Nothing like this in Top Eleven, no final destination. No reason to go higher. Only troubles.
The problem is in front of you. Many managers intentionally lose the League to stay on the same level, because losing the League gives you more than winning: you stay on the same level without losing relative quality. Have you seen something like this in real football?
If you don't think it's a problem, then I'd like to hear your definition of this word =]

I think both of you are making valid points. JCohen is spot on with his analysis -- getting promoted implies playing better teams, and thus your players capability must decrease initially when the quality of play is higher (i.e., I was a ringer in adult recreation leagues, but only an average college player). Toxcatl's frustrations are also valid -- getting promoted shouldn't be punitive to the value of your players. Promotion should not decrease the value of a player; only age / declining skill set should decrease it.

The challenge for the developers (I'm a scientist / software developer, so I can sympathize a little bit) is this: a player's value on the transfer market is currently tied directly to your league level. This isn't the case in real football; both Liverpool and Plymouth Argyle can bid on the same player even though that player would be a 2-star prospect for Liverpool and a 5-star standout for Plymouth Argyle. The challenge for the developers is to make the transfer market more flexible so that multiple league levels can bid on the same player. For example, your player may only be worth 750K in League 5, but a League 3 club may be willing to pay 1M+ for that player b/c of his capability relative to the rest of League Level 3. That League 5 team should have the opportunity to sell that player to lower level teams for more money; I think that would alleviate some of the frustration Toxcatl is (correctly) feeling.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by nittanymeteo

I think both of you are making valid points. JCohen is spot on with his analysis -- getting promoted implies playing better teams, and thus your players capability must decrease initially when the quality of play is higher (i.e., I was a ringer in adult recreation leagues, but only an average college player). Toxcatl's frustrations are also valid -- getting promoted shouldn't be punitive to the value of your players. Promotion should not decrease the value of a player; only age / declining skill set should decrease it.

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I'm not saying that players should't suffer from relative quality loss when the team is getting a promotion. They should. Absolute quality of players in Top Eleven never goes down, it doesn't decrease on promotion, only relative quality does. And this is not the problem, it's only a logical thing.
The problem is there is no single reason to get promoted. In real football there're reasons to go to the higher league, but in Top Eleven going higher gives us big fat nothing.
I'd better stay on my current level and be successful in Asso games than go higher for... hm, for what? Why should I go higher? Give me at least one reason.
Why do you do it? Satisfaction? Successful Asso, Cup and CL games gives more. The number next to your name? What else is there?

I feel kind of powerless to explain my point better than I did in so many words before v_v
*Toxcatl tries to summon currently tanking managers to the thread*

I thik there are two reasons for tanking
- lack of time, cannot be active as I want so I 'm staying
- enforce my team, gatherin extra sources for the next season

Is there any other reason of tanking ?

As I played only Diablo I & II, don't know the system.


btw I made two suggestions
- Save and load option (the last day of the season, when everything finished and starting again some new season from day one)
- a choice of the player if want to promote to the next level (or the opposite, to decalir that he don't want to promote) despite he played normally that season and finished in 1-8 position.

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Originally Posted by nikolgiorgos

- enforce my team, gatherin extra sources for the next season

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Yep. But forget about the next season, repeat again and again to be stronger and stronger. Gather resourses always, promote never.
That's ugly, but effective. This is the problem.

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Originally Posted by Toxcatl

The problem is there is no single reason to get promoted. In real football there're reasons to go to the higher league, but in Top Eleven going higher gives us big fat nothing.

I'd better stay on my current level and be successful in Asso games than go higher for... hm, for what? Why should I go higher? Give me at least one reason.
Why do you do it? Satisfaction? Successful Asso, Cup and CL games gives more. The number next to your name? What else is there?

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There are a few main reasons for me. First, I just think it's a more rewarding experience to the game. To me, the challenge of having to retool my squad and deal with the various competitions to succeed is more worth it. It's more important for me to always strive for excellence than to have a higher quality team. I almost always get promoted anyway, so the only competition tanking helps me in is Associations (more on that later).

Second, tanking prevents me from competing in CL, which is a big source of prize money. Sure, you still get into Cup, but Cup usually has less money, and you get matched up with teams of similar quality anyway. Same thing with League; you're really just falling back into a tougher league after tanking, most often.

Third, if I tank, it brings up my Association's average quality, which brings us harder teams. This is especially true if I have a significantly higher quality than my teammates; I'd be bringing our overall average up, making our Association play other teams with a higher quality, and indirectly hurting my teammates.

Fourth, it kinda messes up the players. One thing I've noticed is that momentum is a REAL thing in this game; if players are doing well and jelling, they are likely to keep rolling until they hit a wall. By tanking and forcing your players to play out of position, or tired, or just benched, the players can't really get into a rhythm of winning. This is especially true if you are tanking in one competition but then actually trying to win in another.

I do see some merits in a tanking system; however, I think there are many reasons why managers like me choose not to tank. Perhaps Nordeus should try to think about offering a way to please tankers, but I think there are some other things that are higher priorities for them at this point in time.

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Originally Posted by jcohen42

There are a few main reasons for me.

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Thanks for the great answer! I can't say you've changed my mind completely, but you definitely have got a point here. I'm gonna meditate on that for some time =]