Easy fix for manipulating division and cup seedings

Well, for an economist like myself this seems like a pretty simple solution, which kind of makes me wonder why the heck Nordeus didn't do this from the start.

Instead of using Team Strength at End of Season, the game just needs to use Average Team Strength on Previous Season to avoid most of the exploiter tactics. I tried this myself (manipulating seedings) a few seasons ago, and its just too simple and too powerful. I won all games, treble, suffered 3 goals in 50 matches, scored almost 200. No fun at all, to me and to all the fair players you ended up having to play with my exploited team. Just bought a ton of crappy players in the last day of the season and sold half my starting 11. Tanked from 119% to 52% in a day...

If Average Team Strength on Previous Season had been used, my efforts would be pointless, as I would had been seeded as a 115% team and would be my ass the one destroyed. A lot more fair, since I would had been the jerk that decided to sell my best players. As things are, is total upside logic and I think it gets super annoying for older players, unless you have low self-esteem and really need a lot of TE silverware to make you happy.

My 2 cents about this one.

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Originally Posted by mcdoomer

Well, for an economist like myself this seems like a pretty simple solution, which kind of makes me wonder why the heck Nordeus didn't do this from the start.

Instead of using Team Strength at End of Season, the game just needs to use Average Team Strength on Previous Season to avoid most of the exploiter tactics. I tried this myself (manipulating seedings) a few seasons ago, and its just too simple and too powerful. I won all games, treble, suffered 3 goals in 50 matches, scored almost 200. No fun at all, to me and to all the fair players you ended up having to play with my exploited team. Just bought a ton of crappy players in the last day of the season and sold half my starting 11. Tanked from 119% to 52% in a day...

If Average Team Strength on Previous Season had been used, my efforts would be pointless, as I would had been seeded as a 115% team and would be my ass the one destroyed. A lot more fair, since I would had been the jerk that decided to sell my best players. As things are, is total upside logic and I think it gets super annoying for older players, unless you have low self-esteem and really need a lot of TE silverware to make you happy.

My 2 cents about this one.

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What nordeus should do is close TM for selling of player 4 or 5 days before new season.

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Originally Posted by HairDryer

What nordeus should do is close TM for selling of player 4 or 5 days before new season.

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I would be very much against any limitations to the TM. The TM is not broken (or not as broken as the seedings are). That would only hurt fair players just to hurt the seeding exploiters too.

Statistically speaking, my suggestion solves the root of the problem. Why is not like that from the start, beats me. I guess Nordeus didnt imagine their seeding system would be so easily exploited. Why is not fixed in so many years can probably be explained by one of 2 reasons:

#1- Technical: the coding required to fix it would demand a lot of changes. (I dont believe this would be the case, unless the game is very poorly coded, but cmon... its just another spreadsheet game like CM, FM... cant be that hard!)

#2- Economical: the 1 or 2 jerks that playxploit on every division generate more revenue than the rest of the players together. If this is the case, Nordeus would never reveal it, but would also never fix it and we can go all suck a lemon if we dont like it.

If its not one these 2, I really have no idea. Maybe too busy doing Mourinho video pranks? :P

I think it's number 2. Money, money, money.

from an economist perspective, the devs don't care if managers win triple or not ... All they care about is to suck back the tokens provided to managers and increase the level of competition gradually to increase the sales of tokens / rests/ scout players by potential customers.

good idea.something must be done for the manipulation problem.

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Originally Posted by Altiplano

I think it's number 2. Money, money, money.

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Might as well be, but its also a deterrent for other people to invest more into the game. It requires a lot more investment to keep a nice team, with basically the same players for long seasons, compared to just keep a bunch of 1 stars and renew half the starting eleven each season. When I tried the "dark side", my team value in total was lower than the timing that finished last in that division. Still i didnt lost a single game, had 1 goal against to 172 goals scored. How ridiculous is that? I know some people get all touchy with the word "cheat", but, at the very least, this is cheating the system by exploiting a known vulnerability.

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Originally Posted by mcdoomer

Might as well be, but its also a deterrent for other people to invest more into the game. It requires a lot more investment to keep a nice team, with basically the same players for long seasons, compared to just keep a bunch of 1 stars and renew half the starting eleven each season. When I tried the "dark side", my team value in total was lower than the timing that finished last in that division. Still i didnt lost a single game, had 1 goal against to 172 goals scored. How ridiculous is that? I know some people get all touchy with the word "cheat", but, at the very least, this is cheating the system by exploiting a known vulnerability.

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I'm interested to see what happens this season. This is my 3rd season of manipulating the draw and the same 4 or 5 friends have come up against me in the league. I actually feel sorry for them, they are long time in game friends, perhaps 20 seasons or more.
If they quit because of my manipulation how does that benefit anyone? Nordeus will lose clients and I'll lose active opposition.
So they can, what? Tank to avoid me next season? Learn to manipulate the draw? Quit? Or spend?
My guess is that they'll quite soon leave the game. And that's good for no one.
Although I'll use the "cheats/exploits" whatever anyone want to call them, I'd rather Nordeus finds a way to put an end to them.

I still don't get how manipulating the draws can be a problem for someone,how can be this called "cheating" as long as if you do this and play against same lvl teams,you have the same market,you don't have any advantage against your opponent as most of the teams are abandoned or semi abandoned and those few with active managers can buy the same % quality players-up to 99% from auctions and negociations, up to 116% from scout and up to 119% from recommended players.
Last season i had in my cup&champiobs league a guy who bought 8 players from scout 1st day of the season (6 of them were from the expensive ones 116%q) this season i have another guy who bought 7 scouts 1st day of the season,is this cheating?
Is my fault that most of my opponents from my server doesn't know how to train their players,or is my fault that most of them buys players over 26 and they don't gain more than 5% untill the season ends?
So here the suggestion is,the draw manipulation to be fixed and then to play against +1 lvl opponents in cup/champions league(starting with -20% against them,plus they have access to higher quality players) and the worst,to play against few tankers with teams over 140%.
As long as Nordeus doesn't sort their s***, i will play the game as i want,no matter if i will get bored and maybe i will quit or others will.

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Originally Posted by madflo19

I still don't get how manipulating the draws can be a problem for someone,how can be this called "cheating" as long as if you do this and play against same lvl teams,you have the same market,you don't have any advantage against your opponent as most of the teams are abandoned or semi abandoned and those few with active managers can buy the same % quality players-up to 99% from auctions and negociations, up to 116% from scout and up to 119% from recommended players.

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Because the game is called Top Eleven and not Top Draw Manipulators? Should be about the 90 minutes during the games and not the 48 hours between seasons? You really can't see a problem with this?

PS - I learned how to manipulate the draws watching you and your team a few years ago, so I was expecting you to be one of the most interested people in having this fixed. Can't understand how the game is even still fun for you to play. Must be like playing Idle Heroes or any other of those autoplay games out there. Where's the challenge in that, mate?

The simplest way to avoid manipulation is to make the draws based on levels rather than quality.
and obviously the ideal would be that the draws to take into account how active the player is.

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Originally Posted by mcdoomer

Because the game is called Top Eleven and not Top Draw Manipulators? Should be about the 90 minutes during the games and not the 48 hours between seasons? You really can't see a problem with this?

PS - I learned how to manipulate the draws watching you and your team a few years ago, so I was expecting you to be one of the most interested people in having this fixed. Can't understand how the game is even still fun for you to play. Must be like playing Idle Heroes or any other of those autoplay games out there. Where's the challenge in that, mate?

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It's not me who should fix the game to make it "fair" for everyone.
Yes,i can't see any problem when,as i said before,my opponent have access to the same players (market) as i have.
I see this as a GAME and nothing more,that's why i'm still playing it.
Few years ago i was playing against +4/5 lvls teams in cup competition,this is how the game was then,this is how the game is now,i can't do nothing about it,i can either to play it or to quit.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6e68647058.jpg

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Originally Posted by madflo19

It's not me who should fix the game to make it "fair" for everyone.
Yes,i can't see any problem when,as i said before,my opponent have access to the same players (market) as i have.
I see this as a GAME and nothing more,that's why i'm still playing it.
Few years ago i was playing against +4/5 lvls teams in cup competition,this is how the game was then,this is how the game is now,i can't do nothing about it,i can either to play it or to quit.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6e68647058.jpg

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You are entitled to your opinion, no beef with that. Have you ever saw the Nordeus Know the Managers series? To many many players is clearly more than just "a game", so their opinions deserve the same respect too.

@mcdoomer if you want to support your suggestion, ok
but calling others cheaters, this thread not gonna stay open for long.

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Originally Posted by mcdoomer

You are entitled to your opinion, no beef with that. Have you ever saw the Nordeus Know the Managers series? To many many players is clearly more than just "a game", so their opinions deserve the same respect too.

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Of course everyone must have their opinions and of course i respect this.
Ps I'm a hard core player but if this will become more than a game for me,i must look for help(medical) lol

Everybody is playing the same game only you decide which way you want to play. As long as you are satisfied with your choice then nothing else matters.
I do believe everyone wants a fair game but Nordeus have to f..king fix it.

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Originally Posted by nikolgiorgos

@mcdoomer if you want to support your suggestion, ok
but calling others cheaters, this thread not gonna stay open for long.

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I didnt call anyone a cheater. I said its possible to cheat the system by exploiting the flawed seeding mechanics of the game. Apples and pears, mate.

I kind of manipulafe the draw too and it’s boring but I don’t do it because I want too
I came back to the game 2 seasons ago and started the strategy of buying 3 FT players every season and train them to 120% and then the next season another 3, and so on, so after 4 seasons I will have a 12 players squad with 120%
At the end of season I sell all players that I don’t plan to FT so last season I kept only 6 players and a bunch of low quality players I have in my squad I use just for training to move training levels up, so my overall quality drops at end of season but in 2 seasons when I will have 12 players too keep I will start to have tougher opponents.
But I agree they should do a random draw, or draw just with active players

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Originally Posted by pat0812

I kind of manipulafe the draw too and it’s boring but I don’t do it because I want too
I came back to the game 2 seasons ago and started the strategy of buying 3 FT players every season and train them to 120% and then the next season another 3, and so on, so after 4 seasons I will have a 12 players squad with 120%
At the end of season I sell all players that I don’t plan to FT so last season I kept only 6 players and a bunch of low quality players I have in my squad I use just for training to move training levels up, so my overall quality drops at end of season but in 2 seasons when I will have 12 players too keep I will start to have tougher opponents.
But I agree they should do a random draw, or draw just with active players

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Yeah, something similar happens to me unintentionally too. Since I like to keep the same players for a long time, usually the last season before I do a big renewal, my "original" players are usually 2 star, mixed with several 4*-5* "younger" ones, which are the good ones you get by YA. Eventually that very last season my overall quality is at its lowest, usually around 60%. For the "renewal season" I have absurd amounts of resources, like 500 tokens, 5000 green packs, etc, so I get a really crappy first season with my new starting eleven, boring to the point I dont even need to train, just show up in the game to farm packs. Not as unbalanced as purposely manipulate the seedins, but still pretty unbalanced. Way past the "fun zone" to me.

I do a "soft" manipulation (drop the quality but not selling all my team) because finishing the season with a quality of 115-120%, my draw will be against +1 LV teams in CH.L. and maybe a 8* tanker team in the Cup.
So those things must be fixed first and then doing something about manipulation.

* btw, nothing is easy fixed in TE. The system is very fragile as there are million accounts, different servers and live games and actions (like auctions, training ...)


@HairDryer

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I do believe everyone wants a fair game

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I don't agree.
Asso games started as a fair competition but many people trying to "create" an advantage (with different ways through those years)

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Originally Posted by nikolgiorgos

@HairDryer

I don't agree.
Asso games started as a fair competition but many people trying to "create" an advantage (with different ways through those years)

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People is corrupted by nature.


We've suggested -at least i remember it, but don't remember if between the suggesters I was there- that yep, this option was mentioned time ago.
Just use the AvQ from another moment, like for example the average quality of the teams during the last matches of the same tournament or similar, and I guess, that for some technical reason, that's not posible.

Then we can analyze how the use of the "Average Team Strength on Previous Season" too can be used for manipulation. Perfectly.


The only way to, dont manipulate is... the same suggestion that I did for the assos, -when I say, choose 14 players before start, and play the FAs with these players, without changes available or new market incorporations- so... "choosing before" and closing the teams is the only "perfect solution" but this in the regular tournaments will not happen.

In FAs is another history, as these needs a obvious fix and a way to do what I call a professionalization of the FAs and not this joke.

The game in essence, has been so flexible since the first version in 2010, and that's part of the success, that's why I don't expect any type of regulation or controls, or limits under the regular competitions.

I really dont get why you insint on draws with average quality and not draws by level.
About Asso draws Khris has a point, but the choice must be for the first eleven
because if not, the exploitation will remain the same as today,,,

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Originally Posted by Rizla

I really dont get why you insint on draws with average quality and not draws by level.
About Asso draws Khris has a point, but the choice must be for the first eleven
because if not, the exploitation will remain the same as today,,,

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14 for the 4 association matches is fair, think that you can have injuries, and allow 3 changes in each match is basic.

There are many formulas really, random, per level, per avQ, avQ from another moment...

Khris with 14 players @mcdoomer will call me cheater again :p

It's impossible to fix this problem. They can put it harder to "cheaters" but there is nothing that they or us can do...

I was thinking to put "Your opponents will be decided by your highest AvQ in the season" but if you do a season with 1* players then, the next one you buy 5* players and ypu beat everyone very, very easily.

See? There will be always a way to manupulate the draw because there has to be a line. People who manipulates the draw will sell all their players just before arriving to the line...

This is my personal opinion, then you can believe what you want - it's always like this.

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Originally Posted by Rizla

Khris with 14 players @mcdoomer will call me cheater again :p

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11+3 subs^^ only these 14 for all the associations tournament, chosen before the start. No new players should be added, if one sells more than 3 of these players with the idea to change them for better players, the list should be closed, so, -11 players = match lost 0-3 by default.

^^


about a "unique" and supreme solution, for the cup, a new "draw" made in every round would be the only solution, so if you manipulate the team before season starting to join a lower avQ cup, only would work one round... unless you manipulate the team selling and buying the team 6 times before each one of the 6 season Cup supposed draws are made, but that's not posible.

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Originally Posted by khris

11+3 subs^^ only these 14 for all the associations tournament, chosen before the start. No new players should be added, if one sells more than 3 of these players with the idea to change them for better players, the list should be closed, so, -11 players = match lost 0-3 by default.

^^


about a "unique" and supreme solution, for the cup, a new "draw" made in every round would be the only solution, so if you manipulate the team before season starting to join a lower avQ cup, only would work one round... unless you manipulate the team selling and buying the team 6 times before each one of the 6 season Cup supposed draws are made, but that's not posible.

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An average curve, the longest the data thread the better. Think of the stock market, for instance. Even if a stock valued at 100 tanks 90% 20 times during 10 years, the average will always smoothen that out. I would not mind AT ALL if the seedings were based on your complete TE career.

i dont agree with manipulation.it makes the game less realistic.simple as that....

so maybe a mathematical formula... knowing that each level difference is of 5 points..... and 80% always is the visual value given for the 5*... add a min value for the cup draws... the value assigned for the 5th star and then, "check out, the value, of the level" in the cse that a team overcomes the 80%, lets say the 100%..... ¿? so,,,, the min avQ in cup considered always would be 80%....

Then considering this, you put in order all teams of the server, and if theres a draw in the AvQ assigned for the 80% sum the value of the level...

EX:

level 2 try to manipulate. 5* at level 2 is 25AvQ and then we have a level 3 trying the same.... level 3 have the 5* at 30 AvQ points, but both teams decrease the AvQ till 15%... so, the one at level 2, with 15 avq have a full of 4*.... 15avq at level 3 is 2*.... buuut...

lets apply the formula, lets give the L2 team, a min' value for the cup draw, not of 15avq, but of 25, which is the average real level of the market of his level, so,,, is his potential..... and the level 3 have assigned a value, or 30 that is the 5* at level 3.... despite the avQ decrease there's no way to trick.


Then.... I have a team 5*... 250avQ points... lets say that a team 3 levels lower, where 5* is 235 have a 8*.... then the system should consider all the star rank.. that goes from 250-254 and see the levels of the teams, the ones with + level would go first in the list ....
...or lower level teams will be count with the "star starting value" in this case a exact 250avQ meanwhile the 8* team is growing till the 9* (255avQ).... hmmmm....

as the system needs go in order from the 1st better team of the server, then doing cup groups till level 1....

¿?

ohh ye, magnific.

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Originally Posted by khris

so maybe a mathematical formula... knowing that each level difference is of 5 points..... and 80% always is the visual value given for the 5*... add a min value for the cup draws... the value assigned for the 5th star and then, "check out, the value, of the level" in the cse that a team overcomes the 80%, lets say the 100%..... ¿? so,,,, the min avQ in cup considered always would be 80%....

Then considering this, you put in order all teams of the server, and if theres a draw in the AvQ assigned for the 80% sum the value of the level...

EX:

level 2 try to manipulate. 5* at level 2 is 25AvQ and then we have a level 3 trying the same.... level 3 have the 5* at 30 AvQ points, but both teams decrease the AvQ till 15%... so, the one at level 2, with 15 avq have a full of 4*.... 15avq at level 3 is 2*.... buuut...

lets apply the formula, lets give the L2 team, a min' value for the cup draw, not of 15avq, but of 25, which is the average real level of the market of his level, so,,, is his potential..... and the level 3 have assigned a value, or 30 that is the 5* at level 3.... despite the avQ decrease there's no way to trick.


Then.... I have a team 5*... 250avQ points... lets say that a team 3 levels lower, where 5* is 235 have a 8*.... then the system should consider all the star rank.. that goes from 250-254 and see the levels of the teams, the ones with + level would go first in the list ....
...or lower level teams will be count with the "star starting value" in this case a exact 250avQ meanwhile the 8* team is growing till the 9* (255avQ).... hmmmm....

as the system needs go in order from the 1st better team of the server, then doing cup groups till level 1....

¿?

ohh ye, magnific.

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That seems overly complicated, mate. I spit balled some ideas with my coworkers that also play the game and we think that the easiest fix is simply to add the statistic: Average Best Possbile Eleven Quality (AvSEQ) Over Time - AvBPEQOT * 1,02 per competition won that season. So, a team with 175 AvBPEQOT that wins the triplet, effectively would be ranked as 185 AvBPEQOT.

Basically, the game only needs to start recording the quality of your Best Possible Eleven, Sum it and divided it by 11 and recording that average (1 goalie, 3 or 4 defenders, 3 or 5 mids, 1 or 4 attackers, this comprises all possible legal formations, the game already has implemented the system to know ilegal formations from legal ones).

If you complete a season with 175 AvBPEQOT (including cup and champions league), you would need to tank under 50% for 2 full seasons to make it worth manipulating the seedings. Which seems a price too high to pay for the benefit, considering if you bring the team back to 175 AvBPEQOT, next season the lowest level opponents would be around 115% (125% if you won a few titles). Not a walk in the park anymore. And this is based on calculating just on the first 4 seasons of this system. After some 20 seasons it gets incredibly more complicated, you need to tank a lot more seasons to get the same effect, since you might have more competitions won.

Bottom line, if the game tracks what You Would Normally be Doing, instead of What You Do, it makes it a lot more even field for all.

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Originally Posted by mcdoomer

That seems overly complicated, mate. I spit balled some ideas with my coworkers that also play the game and we think that the easiest fix is simply to add the statistic: Average Best Possbile Eleven Quality (AvSEQ) Over Time - AvBPEQOT * 1,02 per competition won that season. So, a team with 175 AvBPEQOT that wins the triplet, effectively would be ranked as 185 AvBPEQOT.

Basically, the game only needs to start recording the quality of your Best Possible Eleven, Sum it and divided it by 11 and recording that average (1 goalie, 3 or 4 defenders, 3 or 5 mids, 1 or 4 attackers, this comprises all possible legal formations, the game already has implemented the system to know ilegal formations from legal ones).

If you complete a season with 175 AvBPEQOT (including cup and champions league), you would need to tank under 50% for 2 full seasons to make it worth manipulating the seedings. Which seems a price too high to pay for the benefit, considering if you bring the team back to 175 AvBPEQOT, next season the lowest level opponents would be around 115% (125% if you won a few titles). Not a walk in the park anymore. And this is based on calculating just on the first 4 seasons of this system. After some 20 seasons it gets incredibly more complicated, you need to tank a lot more seasons to get the same effect, since you might have more competitions won.

Bottom line, if the game tracks what You Would Normally be Doing, instead of What You Do, it makes it a lot more even field for all.

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"Basically, the game only needs to start recording the quality of your Best Possible Eleven,"

The problem is that this is the problem, knowing the game lol can't record this amount of data.

Thats why I suggested something that, is not more complicated really, simply give to the team a min value for his level related with the market source of players.

Then the servers, as always, do the list of teams of the server, starting for the best level, grouping the teams in 64 using the criteria to do the draws that now would be use this value.

Really, what you suggest is unimplementable as would need a big data recording...

A good thread that engaged many players and many different opinions which is good as we can have more points of view.

My opinion in this case is that we should not blame the managers.
Managers just adjust their style of playing according with their valid options and as long they do not break game rules, they should not be blamed.

mcdoomer, solution is not actually a new one, it's been suggested couple of times in the past and yes would probably create a more balanced system but wouldn't really fix the problem as people will always find solutions to dodge it.

My question would go for mcdoomer and people who support his idea.

What would you get if they will do that? Would be just another Champions League competition but without group stages. Same opponents level, same quality for another trophy.

Without being offensive. Did you guys saw a Cup Competitions? Is not for weak teams, Cup should highlight best teams only and from time to time some underdogs.

Cups shouldn't be really a fair competition where everyone is on the same level with same chances of winning but it should be a much harder trophy to achieve and highlight those with good quality teams or at least that's how Cup is in real life.

I still remember the CUP back in days when I started to play the game. I lost all the Cups but every season I got closer and closer and this was a great feeling but at the moment for me CUP is just another Champions League without group stages. Same levels, same quality, different trophy design.

Khris, do you believe that I can read your suggestion ?
not really
Actually this is only one among maybe other ten things the devs should change (draws, training, skills/sa, formation/tactics, game-play/rng, asso, tanking, support, auctions, negotiations ...) .
So better create a new TE from the beginning or bring back the old TE 2014 :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by PricopGeorgeCătălin

A good thread that engaged many players and many different opinions which is good as we can have more points of view.

My opinion in this case is that we should not blame the managers.
Managers just adjust their style of playing according with their valid options and as long they do not break game rules, they should not be blamed.

mcdoomer, solution is not actually a new one, it's been suggested couple of times in the past and yes would probably create a more balanced system but wouldn't really fix the problem as people will always find solutions to dodge it.

My question would go for mcdoomer and people who support his idea.

What would you get if they will do that? Would be just another Champions League competition but without group stages. Same opponents level, same quality for another trophy.

Without being offensive. Did you guys saw a Cup Competitions? Is not for weak teams, Cup should highlight best teams only and from time to time some underdogs.

Cups shouldn't be really a fair competition where everyone is on the same level with same chances of winning but it should be a much harder trophy to achieve and highlight those with good quality teams or at least that's how Cup is in real life.

I still remember the CUP back in days when I started to play the game. I lost all the Cups but every season I got closer and closer and this was a great feeling but at the moment for me CUP is just another Champions League without group stages. Same levels, same quality, different trophy design.

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CL and Cup, should allow teams with lower Q to compete as underdogs, of course. I mean, thats what you get in real life. I dont see any problem in that, and you might be misunderstanding how my solution would work, as it would have no effect on that. Again, if the seedings are based in a number you can trust, and I personally dont see any other number than being the "Quality of your Potential Best Eleven" (you can run, but you cant hide...), then the game has a solid Stat to do everything else. If you want a cup drawing with a 30% threshold, go for it! 100%? No problem! CL seedings with 4 slots for very low AvBPEQOT? Go for it!

To me, I'm a numbers person, I love statistics, curves, bollinger lines, derivations, and all that crap that gives freshmen kids the nightmares when then start university level maths, and I personally do not see any other way that could quickly (and be quickly I mean implement now and start seeing the benefits in 5 or 6 seasons) fix this without, like Nikos wisely said, just creating a new TE. But this is just another "spreadsheet game" and those kind of stats based engines can be tweaked forever, as long as you add stats. Removing might brake the engine, but adding... usually just requires a bit more storage.

Again, this might be a totally naive way, as I havent seen the engine myself, nor I obviously can test this solution, but in theory, seems the most bang for the least buck.

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Originally Posted by PricopGeorgeCătălin

A good thread that engaged many players and many different opinions which is good as we can have more points of view.

My opinion in this case is that we should not blame the managers.
Managers just adjust their style of playing according with their valid options and as long they do not break game rules, they should not be blamed.

mcdoomer, solution is not actually a new one, it's been suggested couple of times in the past and yes would probably create a more balanced system but wouldn't really fix the problem as people will always find solutions to dodge it.

My question would go for mcdoomer and people who support his idea.

What would you get if they will do that? Would be just another Champions League competition but without group stages. Same opponents level, same quality for another trophy.

Without being offensive. Did you guys saw a Cup Competitions? Is not for weak teams, Cup should highlight best teams only and from time to time some underdogs.

Cups shouldn't be really a fair competition where everyone is on the same level with same chances of winning but it should be a much harder trophy to achieve and highlight those with good quality teams or at least that's how Cup is in real life.

I still remember the CUP back in days when I started to play the game. I lost all the Cups but every season I got closer and closer and this was a great feeling but at the moment for me CUP is just another Champions League without group stages. Same levels, same quality, different trophy design.

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"Cups shouldn't be really a fair competition where everyone is on the same level with same chances of winning"

can you explain me a cuantic theory to make me believer of the idea that the cup should be for the +5 levels team that join my cup after manipulate the draw, having my team a market level 35 and he a 40?

the point here is that actually the manipulators are rewarded, not the best managers, as would be if a formula like the one I suggest is applied...¿?

mcdoomer, your suggestion is something that clearly make sense and probably all together will create a more fairly system, if we speak of manipulations. Yet! Would still be possible but clearly will ask lots of more resources and time from those who are doing it.

... yet, on another side there would be like lots of side effects, for example I can give you my case, I always change my team at the end of the season so this season I can play with avg. of 7 stars and next season with 5, in this case I will end up in a big disadvantage.

Honestly I would prefer that competitions would be with random opponents as it used to be. Having a random mix of qualities is clearly the best and by far the most fairly one.

Anyway, once again thanks for opening the thread, you clearly made people talking about this subject and that's great!

khris, is actually not that hard to improve the CUP system and I am pretty sure there can be solutions even if you manipulate the quality.
One of the solutions would be to simple follow real life CUP competitions.

Let's take a look at Copa del Rey cause you are from Spain and is a great example as well. If I am not wrong in Copa Del Rey you have teams from 1st to 4th divisions and this is pretty much the same in all big leagues. This can go very well in Top Eleven and for example would be like:

Season 1 - Level 1 vs Level 1

Season 2 - Level 2 vs Level 2;3;4;5
Season 3 - Level 3 vs Level 2;3;4;5
Season 4 - Level 4 vs Level 2;3;4;5
Season 5 - Level 5 vs Level 2;3;4;5

Season 6 - Level 6 vs Level 6,7,8,9
Season 7 - Level 7 vs Level 6,7,8,9
Season 8 - Level 8 vs Level 6,7,8,9
Season 9 - Level 9 vs Level 6,7,8,9

.... and so on. This is probably the closest you can get to real life Cups, as I believe in Cup is normal to have different levels like in real life we have different leagues joining the CUP.

• Advantage for Nordeus as people will invest more to increase their chances once they get closer to the highest level in their CUP level .
• Advantage for Underdog teams once they get to the highest level in their CUP level.
• Advantage for those who are using money as their investment will finally make sense and separate them from the rest of managers as would be fairly if you invested more then the others.
• Increasing Cup dynamic, realism, difficulty and trophy value.
• Increasing Treble value by a lot as it would be much harder by following this pattern.
• Decreasing the effectiveness of manipulation by a lot in CUP and as side effect in other competitions as well.

Would clearly not erase the manipulations but would clearly decrease it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PricopGeorgeCătălin

... yet, on another side there would be like lots of side effects, for example I can give you my case, I always change my team at the end of the season so this season I can play with avg. of 7 stars and next season with 5, in this case I will end up in a big disadvantage.

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Hi mate. Can you elaborate so I can crunch some numbers for you? In my scenarios if you do this every season (oscilate between 140 and 100 in your best eleven), the only result would be you constantly be placed with 6 star average teams League, so at worst you would be 20% under, at best 20% over. If you mean something else, then I didnt understand you I'm afraid :)

Loved your suggestion for Cup, but I think it would end up causing a lot of frustration on players on levels 2, 3, 6, 7, 10, 11, etc. Better to just randomly select Quality pots. So lets say, your Potencial Best Eleven AvgQ is 110%. So cup would be seeded with 33% 100-120%, 33% 80-100%, 33% under 80%, but all from the same level, or adjacent levels in case the seedings couldnt be filled. Same on CL, with perhaps more quality degrees, so you only have lets say 4 potential underdogs in the final 32. Just spit balling here :)

Thanks for appreciating bringing this forward. Ironically I'm having the most nail bitting League season I can remember this year. I just wish every season on every League could be like that for everyone of you!

@mcdoomer, true but that marge would be more like 20% + more in quality for my opponents and is not less. Facing 4,5 opponents in row with this kind of disadvantage would be constantly a pain in the ass. Also facing somebody with a level above me constantly when I apply this scenario would decrease my chances by a lot every time I am doing it as he will have the transfermarket advantage on his side.

Regarding my suggestion the game was pretty much the same when I started, same idea but way more radical, that time, level one always faced level one but after that the level difference between us was huge, even +15 levels or more. Doing it the same but on a smaller scale would be better I guess.

Despite that huge level difference, the CUP was loved by many managers cause it had a special charm. Now is quite gone!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PricopGeorgeCătălin

@mcdoomer, true but that marge would be more like 20% + more in quality for my opponents and is not less. Facing 4,5 opponents in row with this kind of disadvantage would be constantly a pain in the ass. Also facing somebody with a level above me constantly when I apply this scenario would decrease my chances by a lot every time I am doing it as he will have the transfermarket advantage on his side.

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You mean this cups, right, mate? In League you would never face oponnents so strong you couldnt make up for the difference with some heavy training. Of course they can train too, but training is more effective in lower Q levels, in general, of course.