Counter Formations Less Effective Now?

Anybody else having this problem?

I can't remember the last time 4-5-1V worked against 4-1-2-1-2 narrow diamond, despite using correct tactics, and even having a better squad.

In addition to this, 4-4-2 is trumping any of the numerous confirmed counter formations out there.

Really struggling here as literally everyone I've played this and last season has used one of either formations, it's getting boring, there's no diversity.

Now I'm not an idiot, I've got 12 league trophies, and numerous cups and CL trophies, and I know how and when to use appropriate tactics, I'm not asking for advice, just other people's experiences. I just can't seem to cut the opposition at the moment when they pull these formations.

Is it just me or have these formations been seriously buffed up over the past couple of seasons?

You have been found out. There are better managers around at the higher levels and you are easy pickings for them.

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Originally Posted by Sxrenity

Is it just me or have these formations been seriously buffed up over the past couple of seasons?

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yes, for sure very recently something changed in the match simulation
on my side, even if I've a very high ball possession, it is very difficult to score and almost impossible with striker.
And it is not just for me... in the scorer top ten of my leage, the first 3 places are for midfielders.

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Originally Posted by joshyt

You have been found out. There are better managers around at the higher levels and you are easy pickings for them.

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What, by countering formations?

How is fielding a 4-1-2-1-2 narrow diamond against my 4-5-1V making them better managers?

^ in effect, his AMC is pointless against my DMC, and he's left his flanks exposed by only fielding central players bar his full backs.
I've effectively countered all of his attacking players, and exploited where is defence is exposed.

&, i don't see fielding a default 4-4-2, with default tactics, and 4* 28+ year old players as necessarily intelligent either, but maybe i am missing something? :)

It's not so much of a problem in the league, it's occurring in crucial matches in the Cup and CL where i'm literally limping through on away goals, and getting knocked out from some completely silly events, such as my GK getting injured and them putting 2 past me before my sub GK can get on.

It just seems to be harder than it should against these formations that can be, or used to, be simply countered by playing the correct formation and using appropriate orders.

The opposition isn't necessarily getting harder, bar the fact that there are no BOT teams at my level anymore, but my experience over 12 levels, and multiple accounts, is making me feel like the 4-4-2 and narrow diamond have been buffed in an update, or the 4-5-1V has been nerfed.

4-1-2-1 with up arrows on the DMC and AMC smashes 4-5-1 no arrows.

This dominates possesion in the midfield and gives the CBs too much to handle. The only job your full backs will have is collecting the ball out of the back of the net.

The managers in the latter stages of CL (who know how to play) are taking advantage of those who get their football strategy from a online forum. I know this because I come up against them all time!

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Originally Posted by joshyt

4-1-2-1 with up arrows on the DMC and AMC smashes 4-5-1 no arrows.

This dominates possesion in the midfield and gives the CBs too much to handle. The only job your full backs will have is collecting the ball out of the back of the net.

The managers in the latter stages of CL (who know how to play) are taking advantage of those who get their football strategy from a online forum. I know this because I come up against them all time!

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Which is why, red arrows on AMR/AML, Blue on DMC and occasionally reds on DL/DR wrecks him down the wings considering my formation is set up to counter.

I've beat the formation plenty of times, but it's getting more and more difficult for no reason, seeing as though the methods that used to be successful have been tried and tested plenty of times, by managers who've played the game for 2 years plus.

What i'm getting at is, that the reason the formations are becoming less effective, could be a result of the system tweaking formations.

I've played Sega FM for a good few years now, and played football at School & College level.

Let's be honest, the game is nowhere near as advanced as 'true' football sims, and whilst formations in real football work in those situations, they sure as hell don't here.

And where did i say i was getting all of my knowledge off here? I don't claim to be an expert, more of an armchair manager, but i do watch my football avidly, and i'm not an idiot.

Also, if being a member of the forum automatically makes us all bad managers, why are you here? :)

This post was made so i could confer with managers facing similar issues, which there are, considering i've seen plenty complaining of how OP the flat 4-4-2 is at the moment, not for people such as you to simply point out that the reason i am not getting the results i want is because i am a 'bad manager'.

Have you lost a game recently and come here to vent and take it out on others? There was no need to just randomly come out with a comment like that, grow up.

**** happens, LFC annihilate Arsenal 5-1, doesn't necessarily make Wenger a bad manager, City smash Chelsea 2-0, doesn't make Mourinho a bad manager.

"The managers in the latter stages of CL (who know how to play) are taking advantage of those who get their football strategy from a online forum. I know this because I come up against them all time!"

I've won the cup, and CL plenty of times by the way.

But i'm sorry, i don't know how to play joshyt, my apologies.

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Originally Posted by joshyt

The managers in the latter stages of CL (who know how to play) are taking advantage of those who get their football strategy from a online forum. I know this because I come up against them all time!

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Is this you asking for football strategy from an online forum? I thought you should know how to counter this already, considering you're lecturing me?

http://forum.topeleven.com/formation...tml#post145775

i noticed a change too
http://forum.topeleven.com/top-eleve...-strategy.html

all honesty, i dont believe in counter formations

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Originally Posted by littledude072

i noticed a change too
http://forum.topeleven.com/top-eleve...-strategy.html

all honesty, i dont believe in counter formations

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Yeah i'm starting to lean that way too.

I had a mess around the other day and fielded a narrow diamond, and used the 'focus down the flanks' tactic, and banged 4 past a team of similar quality in my CL group, just goes to show how tactics work on this game doesn't it haha!

I've been hating on 4 4 2 for a long time, and recently it seems Narrow Diamond is also harder to beat than before, that is, what I have in the past had fair success with hasn't been working.

But I also wonder if the engine has changed in the way it treats home and away, especially in Cup and CL, I've had some slightly odd results.

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Originally Posted by Cat Harrison

I've been hating on 4 4 2 for a long time, and recently it seems Narrow Diamond is also harder to beat than before, that is, what I have in the past had fair success with hasn't been working.

But I also wonder if the engine has changed in the way it treats home and away, especially in Cup and CL, I've had some slightly odd results.

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THIS.

Last season's cup Quarter Finals.

Lost 4-0 at home, won 5-0 away, same tactics, same formation, same everything really, i really didn't expect to win and was kinda resigned.

LOL narrow diamond, down both flanks? sounds like an oxymoron unless they beefed the back liners while nerfing CDMs
ima test it out later on, a formation with a CDM, LB moved up to LAM and whatnot. a few months ago it failed. so practically
CF
LAM
CM-CM-CM-RM
CDM
CB-CB-RB
back then i attacked down its left side (my right side) and failed. not too sure with the current 'tweaks'

always hated home and aways

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Originally Posted by Sxrenity

How is fielding a 4-1-2-1-2 narrow diamond ...

&, i don't see fielding a default 4-4-2.

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Those two formations seem to be absolutely dominate lately for some reason. It's not just you.
I guess i could switch to using them, ..

Might have a point there. Our victory in the CL yesterday. lol

Attachment 19663

There is nothing such as counter formation in this game...The only thing is that every season they make some formation to perform better then the others...Might be that even this is not true because there are 11 players and an infinite number of legal formation can be made from them...

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Originally Posted by Sxrenity

And where did i say i was getting all of my knowledge off here? I don't claim to be an expert, more of an armchair manager, but i do watch my football avidly, and i'm not an idiot.

Also, if being a member of the forum automatically makes us all bad managers, why are you here? :)

But i'm sorry, i don't know how to play joshyt, my apologies.

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I'm not saying you are a bad manager. I'm not saying you get ALL of our knowledge of here either. Did you read what I said? Are you just angry?

When you get promoted you are playing at a higher standard. The managers you will be up against will have won several trophies too.

The days of just setting up your team to counter abandoned bot teams and collect easy trophies are now OVER. Don't log in for 70 days and start again if you want easy trophies.

You mention that you have come across some mysterious 'powerful' formations. Then why not just set up your team in the same way and let the trophies roll in? Does that not work? Well perhaps like I said you have reached the max of your capability or you have been found out.

Sorry if this upsets you. Don't shoot the messenger.

Counter Formations Less Effective Now? YES

in this season I use only 4-3N-2W-1 and 4-5-1 V-Style, in 10 games - 9 wins and 1 draw, but I also played this formations in last season and lost/draw 70% my games, even against teams 6Q weaker

if you not have troll season you can win single formation in every game, but if you have troll season you can be beaten by any formation when you have better counter formation

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Originally Posted by Chester FC

Counter Formations Less Effective Now? YES

in this season I use only 4-3N-2W-1 and 4-5-1 V-Style, in 10 games - 9 wins and 1 draw, but I also played this formations in last season and lost/draw 70% my games, even against teams 6Q weaker

if you not have troll season you can win single formation in every game, but if you have troll season you can be beaten by any formation when you have better counter formation

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I am trolled this season ...12Q difference and I used counter formation still lost the game

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Originally Posted by joshyt

I'm not saying you are a bad manager. I'm not saying you get ALL of our knowledge of here either. Did you read what I said? Are you just angry?

When you get promoted you are playing at a higher standard. The managers you will be up against will have won several trophies too.

The days of just setting up your team to counter abandoned bot teams and collect easy trophies are now OVER. Don't log in for 70 days and start again if you want easy trophies.

You mention that you have come across some mysterious 'powerful' formations. Then why not just set up your team in the same way and let the trophies roll in? Does that not work? Well perhaps like I said you have reached the max of your capability or you have been found out.

Sorry if this upsets you. Don't shoot the messenger.

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I've played this for over a year, and have multiple accounts.

I've never said the trophies have been easy, and i'm actually glad of the challenge.

Talk of being 'found out'...I'm still in all 3 comps. And this isn't a debate about me wanting to win cups etc, its a thread about the game engine.

They're not mysterious powerful formations either, it's the fact the engine has definitely been tweaked, the evidence all over the forums is inadmissible.

I'll put this out here right now, i don't like you pal, you're a real hypocrite too.

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Originally Posted by Sxrenity

Is this you asking for football strategy from an online forum? I thought you should know how to counter this already, considering you're lecturing me?

http://forum.topeleven.com/formation...tml#post145775

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It started off as a simple thread asking other managers if they have had the same experience, it was not a cause for you to come here with your drivel talking about how 'I have been found out', which is nonsense.

Now on your bike pal.

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Originally Posted by Sxrenity

Is it just me or have these formations been seriously buffed up over the past couple of seasons?

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Ok I will keep it simple. No they have not. You are playing in higher divisions against stronger opponents. If you are having difficulty you need to look in the mirror and not blame the game engine.

That is all.

Oh okay, we're all wrong.

And no, they aren't stronger, at all. The average quality in regards to star rating is exactly the same, same types of managers, same types of tactics etc.

But yeah, you're right, everyone here is wrong.

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Originally Posted by FCB

I am trolled this season ...12Q difference and I used counter formation still lost the game

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Originally Posted by Chester FC

Counter Formations Less Effective Now? YES

in this season I use only 4-3N-2W-1 and 4-5-1 V-Style, in 10 games - 9 wins and 1 draw, but I also played this formations in last season and lost/draw 70% my games, even against teams 6Q weaker

if you not have troll season you can win single formation in every game, but if you have troll season you can be beaten by any formation when you have better counter formation

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Originally Posted by Razz

Those two formations seem to be absolutely dominate lately for some reason. It's not just you.
I guess i could switch to using them, ..

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gat Manar

yes, for sure very recently something changed in the match simulation
on my side, even if I've a very high ball possession, it is very difficult to score and almost impossible with striker.
And it is not just for me... in the scorer top ten of my leage, the first 3 places are for midfielders.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by littledude072

i noticed a change too
http://forum.topeleven.com/top-eleve...-strategy.html

all honesty, i dont believe in counter formations

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cat Harrison

I've been hating on 4 4 2 for a long time, and recently it seems Narrow Diamond is also harder to beat than before, that is, what I have in the past had fair success with hasn't been working.

But I also wonder if the engine has changed in the way it treats home and away, especially in Cup and CL, I've had some slightly odd results.

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Sorry that is not all.

Not only does higher levels have better managers, lower teams are much closer in ability.

For example: 105q team versus 100q will have a tougher time than 25q team versus 20q. In the first scenario the first team is just 5% stronger. In the second scenario it is 25% stronger. this difference gets smaller every season.

This means all of the levers a manager can pull such as Possession/Strategy/win bonus etc etc mean less at higher levels. So these 'harder to beat' teams are actually much closer in natural ability than they used to be. These teams are not a bunch of clowns who will roll over and gladly take a beating.

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Originally Posted by joshyt

Sorry that is not all.

Not only does higher levels have better managers, lower teams are much closer in ability.

For example: 105q team versus 100q will have a tougher time than 25q team versus 20q. In the first scenario the first team is just 5% stronger. In the second scenario it is 25% stronger. this difference gets smaller every season.

This means all of the levers a manager can pull such as Possession/Strategy/win bonus etc etc mean less at higher levels. So these 'harder to beat' teams are actually much closer in natural ability than they used to be. These teams are not a bunch of clowns who will roll over and gladly take a beating.

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does 3* team equal to 6* team ?

what about this ... 8* striker did not have single shot ?

http://i59.tinypic.com/2eci0k6.jpg

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Originally Posted by joshyt

Sorry that is not all.

Not only does higher levels have better managers, lower teams are much APART in ability.

For example: 105q team versus 100q will have a tougher time than 25q team versus 20q. In the first scenario the first team is just 5% stronger. In the second scenario it is 25% stronger. this difference gets smaller every season.

This means all of the levers a manager can pull such as Possession/Strategy/win bonus etc etc mean less at higher levels. So these 'harder to beat' teams are actually much closer in natural ability than they used to be. These teams are not a bunch of clowns who will roll over and gladly take a beating.

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Better :)

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Originally Posted by FCB

does 3* team equal to 6* team ?

what about this ... 8* striker did not have single shot ?

http://i59.tinypic.com/2eci0k6.jpg

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The stars are 'vanity symbols'.

That first team looks better than 3 stars. But in any case 3 star team isn't half the quality of a 6 star team it is much closer than that.

Look at the performance of your goal keepers. Clearly made some errors and so did your DMC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joshyt

Sorry that is not all.

Not only does higher levels have better managers, lower teams are much closer in ability.

For example: 105q team versus 100q will have a tougher time than 25q team versus 20q. In the first scenario the first team is just 5% stronger. In the second scenario it is 25% stronger. this difference gets smaller every season.

This means all of the levers a manager can pull such as Possession/Strategy/win bonus etc etc mean less at higher levels. So these 'harder to beat' teams are actually much closer in natural ability than they used to be. These teams are not a bunch of clowns who will roll over and gladly take a beating.

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What level are U Mister???? May I ask?

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Originally Posted by joshyt

The stars are 'vanity symbols'.

That first team looks better than 3 stars. But in any case 3 star team isn't half the quality of a 6 star team it is much closer than that.

Look at the performance of your goal keepers. Clearly made some errors and so did your DMC.

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LOLs so u talking like an experienced manager draw ur concusions from RATINGS????!!!! Hilarious.... It has been proved time and again that ratings are random:p

There's just no point trying to argue with this guy, he's a self proclaimed Top Eleven expert.

If you don't mind me asking, show us your trophy room and current squad, and then we'll decide whether to take your opinions onboard.

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Originally Posted by Sxrenity

There's just no point trying to argue with this guy, he's a self proclaimed Top Eleven expert.

If you don't mind me asking, show us your trophy room and current squad, and then we'll decide whether to take your opinions onboard.

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Me?? I sorry but I play on android and there's no trophy room there:( But I never managed my team the 1st 3-4 seasons and won nothing, since then I have won only 4 leagues and numerous 2nd spots due to end of season trolls....

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Originally Posted by Saransh Vatsa

Me?? I sorry but I play on android and there's no trophy room there:( But I never managed my team the 1st 3-4 seasons and won nothing, since then I have won only 4 leagues and numerous 2nd spots due to end of season trolls....

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No Saranesh, this kid who is trying to educate us all with his superior knowledge of the game.

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Originally Posted by joshyt

Sorry that is not all.

Not only does higher levels have better managers, lower teams are much closer in ability.

For example: 105q team versus 100q will have a tougher time than 25q team versus 20q. In the first scenario the first team is just 5% stronger. In the second scenario it is 25% stronger. this difference gets smaller every season.

This means all of the levers a manager can pull such as Possession/Strategy/win bonus etc etc mean less at higher levels. So these 'harder to beat' teams are actually much closer in natural ability than they used to be. These teams are not a bunch of clowns who will roll over and gladly take a beating.

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He knows all this.

This is not what he was commenting on. I have played soccer, watched countless hours of it, and I have played this game plenty enough to notice when things change, and in regards to the formations he mentioned, there does seem to be different results than expected for me. Maybe you don't have this opinion, that's ok. But that's what this thread is about. Please refrain from insulting other users of this Forum henceforth.

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Originally Posted by Cat Harrison

He knows all this.

This is not what he was commenting on. I have played soccer, watched countless hours of it, and I have played this game plenty enough to notice when things change, and in regards to the formations he mentioned, there does seem to be different results than expected for me. Maybe you don't have this opinion, that's ok. But that's what this thread is about. Please refrain from insulting other users of this Forum henceforth.

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THIS.

All i wanted was for other people with the same experiences to share them with me here, not for someone to start pointing out things we already know, and to imply the reason for what feels like changes to the game engine, to be down to us being 'inferior' managers and being 'found out'.

Thankyou, now maybe we can get back on topic?

I've got a game coming up against a 4-4-2 tomorrow, joint top of the league with me too, slightly less average quality, I'll let you all know how it goes.

I'm level 17.

Happy to share my trophy cabinet - worth mentioning that I joined at the same time as a group of friends.

One is a token buyer who pretty much buys his entire scout list every season and 'power trains' - I have been in his division every season apart from one and always in same champions league. To win leagues I have needed 70+ points every time.

Also back to back cups in the 'new' style cup competitions is a particular highlight!

Infact my only motivation for this game is to try and make his spending a waste of time.
Attachment 19679
Attachment 19680

Where is he now??? Yesterday it was Yasina, today yoshyt, why Y????

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Originally Posted by joshyt

I'm level 17.

Happy to share my trophy cabinet - worth mentioning that I joined at the same time as a group of friends.

One is a token buyer who pretty much buys his entire scout list every season and 'power trains' - I have been in his division every season apart from one and always in same champions league. To win leagues I have needed 70+ points every time.

Also back to back cups in the 'new' style cup competitions is a particular highlight!

Infact my only motivation for this game is to try and make his spending a waste of time.
Attachment 19679
Attachment 19680

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FYI, The new Cup style is better and easier than the Older one:p

A bit off topic but any tips on beating 4-4-2, 7 quality better than me ? :D

I went up against 442 today in the cup and to be honest did not know what to play, he was a level higher than me but only 1q diff, I have tried all sorts b4, so thought why should I always counter so thought I would see what would happen if I played 442 too and pressure bar was against me, could not get near them, so in 2nd have changed to 3N412 managed to equalize but they scored again straight away so went 3N-2N-3(AML/AMC/AMR)-2 and they added another so I am at a loss, in previous round I tried 4-3N-1-2 and won 1-0 with a pen and in return leg played 3N52 changing to 3N-3N-2W-2 winning 3-2

I don't believe in "official" counter formations. There are a lot of factors that have an influence in the final result, and formation is only one of them. Quality of the first team is by far the most important one; if quality is similar, scoring or not in really clear chances (as second corners and counterattacks) is the key of the match. And there is an important part of randomness in the number of clear chances you have in a match.

So, my advice is to choose your formation depending on the skills of your players and the quality of your opponent: if his quality is worse, choose an offensive formation, if better, a defensive one, and with similar qualities, neutral formations like 442, or 451 usually work well. And then be lucky!!!

Cholo

Managed to beat the team joint 1st with me today, and the main threat to my title hopes.

He was fielding a, you guessed it, 4-4-2.

Decided to play the usual 4-5-1V against it, focussing passing down the flanks, attacking mentality, pressing the whole pitch.
I dominated the stats, and I feel I could have easily put 4 past him, but one of his defenders played a blinder.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2mb3aw.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/el3af6.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/2ryr56s.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/fuqukw.jpg

As you can see, I didn't get away freely, got hit by a 1st minute injury, so I'm glad I had my back up MC available at the rare time he's fit at the same time as my main MC.

His STs did seem to have a bad day, they got through on goal a couple of times before my defence halted them, I've been leaking goals all season so I'm glad they decided to perform properly today.

Quality must have played a BIG part here, although I've usually only just scraped through past teams like this fielding a 4-4-2, or narrow diamond.

http://i61.tinypic.com/5ed4ea.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/2b2jxz.jpg