A subject to think about

Does it ever happen to you that you play against the same team in the same day or 2 days where you face it in the league and cup or cl ,

but the thing here even if you both play with same formation during the 3-4 matches the results is never the same it means you can win against him in the league and lose against him in the cup in the same day, while playing with the same formation and nothing has changed .


is this top eleven trying to be realistic ? because before i thought the game has a big data base of same scenarios where teams with specifics formation and quality loses or win against others .

There is probably too much randomness involved in deciding the outcomes of matches - so much that is it not appropriate, and hence it is likely that there will be some things going against football logic.

Say, if two equal quality teams are made to play against each other for 10 times and all the things that can be controlled by both managers are kept constant (formation, orders, arrows, condition, morale, bonuses and so on), and one team used superior tactics, it is expected that this team would win most of the matches. A draw or two may occur and rarely maybe one loss. But, in this game it is not like this. There are more 'anomalies' than expected - more than what is expected in real life. Surprises do occur in real life, but not up to the extent that they do in this game. Many outcomes are not realistic. The same applies to the number of injuries and so on. So, maybe they failed in what they tried to do in terms of making the outcomes more realistic (if ever that were their intentions).

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while playing with the same formation and nothing has changed .

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orders are also important as the formation but how you could now oppo orders ?

Also my opinion is that formation and orders are just another small factor that affects the result.
Some times important, sometimes not.

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is this top eleven trying to be realistic ?

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it's a game based on football but not a simulation.
You can't be the manager of REAL and just click a button the set the mod in defense
or being Diego Simeone and with a click to set attack mentality - lol

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Originally Posted by Tactician

There is probably too much randomness involved in deciding the outcomes of matches - so much that is it not appropriate, and hence it is likely that there will be some things going against football logic.

Say, if two teams are made to play against each other for 10 times and all the things that can be controlled by both managers are kept constant (formation, orders, arrows, condition, morale, bonuses and so on). If both teams are of the same quality and one team used superior tactics, it is expected that this team would win most of the matches. A draw or two may occur and rarely maybe one loss. But, in this game it is not like this. There are more 'anomalies' than expected - more than what is expected in real life. Many outcomes are not realistic. So, maybe they failed in what they tried to do in terms of making the outcomes more realistic (if ever that were their intention).

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why i asked this question ? i had a team in my league that i won against 3-1 and lost against 5-2 in the cup so i'm trying to find a logic

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Originally Posted by nikolgiorgos

orders are also important as the formation but how you could now oppo orders ?

Also my opinion is that formation and orders are just another small factor that affects the result.
Some times important, sometimes not.


it's a game based on football but not a simulation.
You can't be the manager of REAL and just click a button the set the mod in defense
or being Diego Simeone and with a click to set attack mentality - lol

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of course i wouldn't know if he changed arrows or something,but i'm sure most of the players don't just changed arrow to change their tactic they mostly change the whole formation then the arrows,i do that

That's not a machine proggrammed to put exactly same results if X vs Y formation =/ Q(min/max): Q(min/max)

The game itself want u to manage, manage before matches and during these, both jobs have importance, if u see my matches usually when I do a substitution the player that enter to the field comes from another that don't appear,,, and tend to score (for example... as a labour to do during matches)... then change of orders can affect the possession bar... and at the end we know that every formation can win the league with the correct players...
So, why the result/scenario is not teh same vs a same team we face 4 times in a season? ...because this "factor" is not a scenario,, the factor related to the Q. actual morale/condition etc.. is not "the scenario" ...
the scenario are the instructions that use this information (Q./condition/morale/bonus victory) to create a different scenario/situation for every match, and one can have a 9* player but if what determines the scenario say that this player will not appear, will not appear. If theres a aggressive player and the game want one manage to avoid a 2nd yellow, then, this will be the scenario and will require different decisions even if both teams are/have with the same base of Q etc of visual information...


?

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Originally Posted by ElPocho

why i asked this question ? i had a team in my league that i won against 3-1 and lost against 5-2 in the cup so i'm trying to find a logic

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Like I have said, it is probably due to the excessive amount of randomness involved in deciding the outcomes of matches.

But, there may be something else involved too. I have noticed that for the Cup, many times a team is given favor in one leg and the other team is given favor for the other leg (irrespective whether the team is playing away or home). So, if this is observed way too much, there is surely something else involved other than randomness unless if the favor given is a 50-50 decision.

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Originally Posted by khris

That's not a machine proggrammed to put exactly same results if X vs Y formation =/ Q(min/max): Q(min/max)

The game itself want u to manage, manage before matches and during these, both jobs have importance, if u see my matches usually when I do a substitution the player that enter to the field comes from another that don't appear,,, and tend to score (for example... as a labour to do during matches)... then change of orders can affect the possession bar... and at the end we know that every formation can win the league with the correct players...
So, why the result/scenario is not teh same vs a same team we face 4 times in a season? ...because this "factor" is not a scenario,, the factor related to the Q. actual morale/condition etc.. is not "the scenario" ...
the scenario are the instructions that use this information (Q./condition/morale/bonus victory) to create a different scenario/situation for every match, and one can have a 9* player but if what determines the scenario say that this player will not appear, will not appear. If theres a aggressive player and the game want one manage to avoid a 2nd yellow, then, this will be the scenario and will require different decisions even if both teams are/have with the same base of Q etc of visual information...


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i understand that playing against the same team during the season can vary for many things like players levels change and many other factor , but here i'm speaking about playing against same team 2 times in the same day same formation same players,even same stadium almost same everything,maybe it doesn't matter if in the same day or month the result always varies

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Originally Posted by ElPocho

i understand that playing against the same team during the season can vary for many things like players levels change and many other factor , but here i'm speaking about playing against same team 2 times in the same day same formation same players,even same stadium almost same everything,maybe it doesn't matter if in the same day or month the result always varies

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Why shold be the same result if one play same day and different if 2 weeks passed?.... the thing is, that the game say:
-ok, new match:
lets choose a scenario, things to use to determine the scenario;
Q, morale, condition, internal % of contribution of every player(if tend to appear more or less) agressiveness of every one, nº of corners/freekicks/penalties (if corect player shoot, oes well, if not, bad), determinant players that will appear and these who will not contribute (so to be substituted)... bonus... there are many, many things and info and variables that can do of one match something completly different to the others... and many things we dont know xD

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why i asked this question ? i had a team in my league that i won against 3-1 and lost against 5-2 in the cup so i'm trying to find a logic

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when I 'm talking about orders I mean the whole pack.
In those games for example, oppo maybe had normal ment. in the first game and in the second game switched to defense/counter.
It's very difficult to recognize oppo teams orders in the game.

There are many factors , some of them maybe couldn't imagine.
For example here
http://forum.topeleven.com/top-eleve...eleven-12.html
was thinking the possibility that some players performing better in specific competitions.

A great factor is when they launch a update middle in the season

then you can reorganize your team completely and to play friendlies to understand your team behaviour again

this way you can lose important matches when they launch a update en you dont reorganize your team

You must be a pretty terrible manager if you play 2 games against the same guy, lose and play the same tactics the second time around. There will always be randomness - but it's silly to constantly debate information we don't have access to.

Nothing much changed for me with the update, though I was surprised I won one of my 4 matches since then, and by a large margin...it hasn't changed anything for me. It will be interesting with the new rests sitaution, I imagine people will be VPNing the hell out of the game now!

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Originally Posted by Andrew Nifield

I imagine people will be VPNing the hell out of the game now!

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Why? I think, that will not work. :confused:

It works, or they wouldn't be talking about banning people for it.

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Originally Posted by ElPocho

Does it ever happen to you that you play against the same team in the same day or 2 days where you face it in the league and cup or cl ,

but the thing here even if you both play with same formation during the 3-4 matches the results is never the same it means you can win against him in the league and lose against him in the cup in the same day, while playing with the same formation and nothing has changed .


is this top eleven trying to be realistic ? because before i thought the game has a big data base of same scenarios where teams with specifics formation and quality loses or win against others .

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I just encounter this situation. But I used different formation. So I don't have relevant information for your reference.

I don't think match result must be the same in situation you mentioned. Conditions of 2 matches are hardly identical. You should ascertain conditions like player morale, conditions, in match tactic changes, etc. of your team as well as your opponents are identical.

Game will be boring if there is no randomness.

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Originally Posted by cookizzz

I just encounter this situation. But I used different formation. So I don't have relevant information for your reference.

I don't think match result must be the same in situation you mentioned. Conditions of 2 matches are hardly identical. You should ascertain conditions like player morale, conditions, in match tactic changes, etc. of your team as well as your opponents are identical.

Game will be boring if there is no randomness.

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But it is non-appropriate if there is too much randomness involved (which is likely to be the case in Top Eleven). This is probably why there are so many complaints about strange results, non-acceptable results or 'troll' results in this game; such results (let's called them surprise results) have occurred more than they should. Like I have said, if two teams of equal quality are made to play against each other for say 10 times, where all the other factors that can be controlled by the manager are kept constant (tactics, condition, morale and so on), the team using the superior tactics must have the majority of the wins (not 50-50 or so like it seems to be in this game). Randomness can be used to try and simulate the outcomes like they might happen in real life, but when too much randomness is involved, the outcomes deviate from what is expected in real life, that is there are too many surprises or anomalies. So, briefly, the probable problem in this game is that randomness has been given too much significance for deciding match results.

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Originally Posted by Tactician

But it is non-appropriate if there is too much randomness involved (which is likely to be the case in Top Eleven). This is probably why there are so many complaints about strange results, non-acceptable results or 'troll' results in this game; such results (let's called them surprise results) have occurred more than they should. Like I have said, if two teams of equal quality are made to play against each other for say 10 times, where all the other factors that can be controlled by the manager are kept constant (tactics, condition, morale and so on), the team using the superior tactics must have the majority of the wins (not 50-50 or so like it seems to be in this game). Randomness can be used to try and simulate the outcomes like they might happen in real life, but when too much randomness is involved, the outcomes deviate from what is expected in real life, that is there are too many surprises or anomalies. So, briefly, the probable problem in this game is that randomness has been given too much significance for deciding match results.

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I don't rule out existence of troll or surprise results. Just want to remind some complaining managers that we may not access all factors which affect match results.

I have not studied the cases of recent troll results. Do some managers report surprise positive results? Do complaining managers encounter both positive and negative surprise results? Do some managers report that after a series of negative surprise results, they encounter some positive surprise results?

Edit:
One of my teams have roller coaster like up & down in last 2 seasons. These may not be those surprise results as you mentioned but these could be shared for your information.

In last season, this team opened the season with 6 losses in a row. I did not think my team badly played in this period and should have won some of these matches. The team still struggled in 1st half season and finished at bottom of table at half season point. In the 2nd half season, its performance improved without significant player or tactic changes. At one point it has good chance to reach 2nd place. But its performance suddenly worsened in last 2 or 3 days. It eventually finished at 6th (or 5th).

In this season, this team have no roster change except upgrading 2 attacking players 3 or 4 days ago. It unexpectedly well started the season with 8W 0D 1L. Most previous league matches were not so easy but my team could win. But these results are not fully surprising because average qualities in my league in this season were lower.

Cookizzz, I replied for the 'concern' in general, that is not specifically to your post. :)

I think that football managerial skills should matter more than randomness when it comes to a football management game. Randomness should only be there for the element of surprise just like it is in real football, and also to mimic how the results happen in real life. But some users (probably not you cookizzz) will always try to argue, justify or say things against this because of the fact that they are not very good or even good at football management and tactics (some are not even decent). In other words, such users prefer to have the results based more on 'rolls of dices', where not much skill is required, as this is to their advantage. :p

Some users also prefer to have the results based on quality only, which is 'nonsense' in terms of football logic, but they want it like this because they want it 'simple' and want to win easily without requiring much tactical skills.

Some users prefer to have the results based mostly on quality and on 'rolls of dices', again probably because they are not good enough in football tactics.

All those three cases and other similar cases are understandable. It is natural for someone to have something that functions in such a way that he gets advantages. But, this does not mean that this particular way of functioning is appropriate.

I prefer a game based more on skills and hard work rather than 'luck'. Also, football is game based mostly on skills and hard work - the players skills, the managers skills and the other members of staff skills; generally, 'luck' plays only a minor part.

The game depends on % as I believe.
You can set your perfect counter formation, have the better quality then you will have +90% of winning.
Even if you have 90%, you may fail.
This is based on the fact that most managers in real life stick to one formation that better suits their team (quality in the game) and don't change formation every game they have.
They change formation if necessary but they often change tactics.

However, nordeus should review their match calculation system because sometimes it depends too much on luck rather than logic. Also it depends too much on quality.

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Originally Posted by ElPocho

why i asked this question ? i had a team in my league that i won against 3-1 and lost against 5-2 in the cup so i'm trying to find a logic

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I was in the same situation a couple of seasons ago, the same team which was in my Legue (I won the Legue and him personnaly in League games) also played against me in CL, but it was my mistake since I underestimate him after Legue games.

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Originally Posted by Medo zalata

The game depends on % as I believe.
You can set your perfect counter formation, have the better quality then you will have +90% of winning.
Even if you have 90%, you may fail.
This is based on the fact that most managers in real life stick to one formation that better suits their team (quality in the game) and don't change formation every game they have.
They change formation if necessary but they often change tactics.

However, nordeus should review their match calculation system because sometimes it depends too much on luck rather than logic. Also it depends too much on quality.

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In real life, managers do make significant changes. It might be not evident to some people, especially those who only watch TV, read the newspaper, and/or use the internet and refer to the 'formations' shown. In many cases, the preparations and the tactics (this include the formations) to be used are different. The difference in tactics can be seen if you analyse each match, the positioning of the players, each of their roles and so on. You will likely see that there are differences (sometimes big differences) to the formations shown or the formations that was said to be used.

In a game like Top Eleven, options are very limited in terms of tactics. There is clear lack of orders, especially individual orders for each player. But, this is understandable because this game is meant to be more simple as compared to other games like Football Manager and so on.

There is a big difference between football (including football management) in real life and football in a game like Top Eleven. Some people, including some users on the forum here (I am not referring to you Medo, nor do I am referring to the users that commented in this thread only) don't even know what they are taking about, especially those that try to justify things occurring in this game with events that happen in the past or how things are currently are in real life football. But, given that this a football management simulation game, many things can be done so that despite being simple, it can simulate things properly, at least to an extent that the main things concerning football logic are respected.

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Originally Posted by AramRonaldo7

I was in the same situation a couple of seasons ago, the same team which was in my Legue (I won the Legue and him personnaly in League games) also played against me in CL, but it was my mistake since I underestimate him after Legue games.

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Underestimated or not, you would still have lost if the game already gave a lot of hidden advantages to the other team for that particular match. In some cases, nothing much can be done as a manager to change the final outcome, that is win or loss. If you have the quality advantage (but not to the extremes) and if you use superior tactics, you might earn a draw, but you will still lose on penalties. You will even notice how the game set things up and make things happen so that the 'already decided' outcome in terms of win or loss is respected. If you keep on observing for a few seasons, you might even see similarities and trends concerning such things (which means that these have been programmed to occur as such; there are no coincidences). So far, the only way to override this is to have quality advantages as high as +80% and above compared to the quality of the opposing team, where the significant advantages given by the game to this opposing team won't be enough to make you lose. In other words, this is the only guarantee to win, but it is expensive and hence not worth it, especially for a game like this.