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Thread: What do you all mean with countering the orders?

  1. #11
    Kto
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    Quote Originally Posted by LacBuoc View Post
    We can read all enemy tactics, if you have the ability .

    And we will also overthrow them , If the player you good , Tactical changes immediately promoted And vice versa

    No result Nor troll . Because you are weak
    Thanks a lot for the example, thats exactly what I meant. I guess I am too weak to ever reach the genius of some worldclass managers

    Edit: Or was it sarcasm?
    Last edited by Kto; 06-20-2017 at 02:00 PM.

  2. #12
    VIP talisman's Avatar
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    If you attend matches, you're playing against two things, the opposition manager and the match engine. The latter you can't do anything about - if it's decided to give you a bad match, then you're going to have a bad match.

    This leaves the opposition manager. You can set your team up (formation, orders and tactics) to play against his team from the start of the match. If he doesn't attend, then you only need worry about what orders and tactics he has set, and after a short while you will be able to see what (according to the match play) they most likely are, and, if necessary. adjust accordingly.

    If the opposition do turn up, then you will have to see what he does in match to play against you. He might change orders/tactics, sub players and/or change formation. If he changes formation, then you'll need to decide what changes you might need to make to counter them. If he changes orders/tactics, then hopefully, the match play will change and you can figure the changes out, and, if necessary, change to suit.

    The match engine is the unknown quantity. We don't know actually what the engine has in it at the start of the match. The whole match play, goals, cards, injuries and then just plays it out with subtle changes to suit what the managers present have done; just a rough idea and then uses chance choices to affect the match play; or something in between. And Nordeus aren't going to let us know, either...

    All I know is that I have affected match play by the actions I have performed in match. Sub a player who has got a yellow card, and count up how many times the sub has got a yellow card later - I've lost count, but by doing so I've prevented my side going down to 10 men. If the match engine had it programmed that I was supposed to play some of the match one man short, how does it react to not being able to do so? [...and yes, I've had the surprise red card for another player also...]

    A goal down, 15 minutes to go? Change to hard attacking and you'll get at least one goal, in my experience. Did the match engine have that programmed in, or was it reacting to my order change?

    I could list numerous times where
    (a) I've had the satisfaction of being at a match, been in dire trouble and at least got something out of it because I've made changes and they've worked.
    (b) I've had matches where nothing I've done has affected the match play or result in any way.
    (c) And I've been badly Trolled, but usually when I've not been able to get to a match.

    Please don't take the happiness of (a) away by telling me that whatever I'd done, I'd have got that result anyway...
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  3. #13
    Newbie SohamTheGreat14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by talisman View Post
    The only thing you can counter is the opponents formation, if you believe the Counter-Formations tables.

    You can only guess at what the opposition manager has asked his team to do, but usually you can guess from his initial formation, position in the competition, etc - if he is an active manager.

    The difficult ones are the abandoned teams, some a******e ex-managers leave idiotic orders with their teams that the engine is only too ready to take advantage of, which is one of my theories about Troll results.
    true, just lost match by 1 goal, strikers FC(my team) 3 and oponent 4. overall percentage of both teams- my- 89% and his 54%+ sh*t formation with sh*t troll results

  4. #14
    Kto
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    Quote Originally Posted by talisman View Post
    Sub a player who has got a yellow card, and count up how many times the sub has got a yellow card later - I've lost count, but by doing so I've prevented my side going down to 10 men
    I almost always sub the yellowed player, thats sort of a rule for me, just against headache.

    Thats all interesting stuff, thanks to all of you, but can one answer the main primitive question of the thread - what does order countering mean?

    We can discuss what else is important, but I have read a plenty of times 'countering the orders' in sentences like 'you must not only counter the formation but also the orders' or 'after I figured out his orders I knew what to do? Some can say there is no order countering , it depends also on abc and xyz etcetc. So probably I hope for an answer from ORDER MASTERS
    Last edited by Kto; 06-20-2017 at 03:25 PM.

  5. #15
    Champion madflo19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LacBuoc View Post
    We can read all enemy tactics, if you have the ability .

    And we will also overthrow them , If the player you good , Tactical changes immediately promoted And vice versa

    No result Nor troll . Because you are weak




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  6. #16
    Elite Tactician's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kto View Post
    I almost always sub the yellowed player, thats sort of a rule for me, just against headache.

    Thats all interesting stuff, thanks to all of you, but can one answer the main primitive question of the thread - what does order countering mean?

    We can discuss what else is important, but I have read a plenty of times 'countering the orders' in sentences like 'you must not only counter the formation but also the orders' or 'after I figured out his orders I knew what to do? Some can say there is no order countering , it depends also on abc and xyz etcetc. So probably I hope for an answer from ORDER MASTERS
    You have addressed your question to talisman, but let me reply.

    Suppose you had to play a match versus a team. You checked the formation, the squad and so on, and then you adjusted your formation, starting line-up and so on as according to your knowledge and beliefs. The match starts. After 5 min, I tell you that the orders for that team are: hard attacking, mixed focus, mixed passing, force-counter attacks, offside trap and man-on-man marking. Tell me what orders will you use to counter those (some people might laugh)?

    (1) There is no accurate way that will allow you to find out what orders and arrows an opposing team is using. You can guess some things before the match, and guess some more things during the match. But, time itself is very limited during a match, and suppose the you find out some things based on the highlights, those things could have been changed by the time the adjustments you made are considered by the game.

    (2) Even if you knew the exact orders of an opponent, there is no clear code for countering orders that say: this will counter this or that will counter that. Some people might think or say, this team is using attacking, so use defensive and force-counter attacks. But what if this team is using defensive and counter-attacks what would you use then, normal? Going by that way of think, what would you use then in case of hard attacking, mixed focus, mixed passing, force-counter attacks, offside trap and man-on-man marking? Hard defending, force-counter attacks, then what? And what would you use in the case of hard defending and force-counter attacks then? How about against a team that uses normal mentality? At this point, you will probably laugh.

    For me, from my experience so far in this game, it is about strategy (concerning formation, orders and arrows). Just like a manager in real life football uses strategies, where those strategies has a chance to fail, in this game also it is the same, just that there is less logic, less sense and more randomness (or whatever else) in this game.
    Last edited by Tactician; 06-20-2017 at 04:59 PM.
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  7. #17
    VIP talisman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kto View Post
    I almost always sub the yellowed player, thats sort of a rule for me, just against headache.

    Thats all interesting stuff, thanks to all of you, but can one answer the main primitive question of the thread - what does order countering mean?

    We can discuss what else is important, but I have read a plenty of times 'countering the orders' in sentences like 'you must not only counter the formation but also the orders' or 'after I figured out his orders I knew what to do? Some can say there is no order countering , it depends also on abc and xyz etcetc. So probably I hope for an answer from ORDER MASTERS
    I take countering orders to be, for example, using defensive against and attacking opponent, or vice versa. The first will give you a leg up if you are using counters, the second will nullify them if you are of greater quality in the appropriate area.

    Other people will have different interpretations...

    EDIT: Read up one reply, Tactician has gone into much more detail - I may disagree in minor details, but in essence I would agree with his summary.
    Last edited by talisman; 06-20-2017 at 09:33 PM.
    Any formation or tactics advice given is based purely on experience with my teams...

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by talisman View Post
    I take countering orders to be, for example, using defensive against and attacking opponent, or vice versa. The first will give you a leg up if you are using counters, the second will nullify them if you are of greater quality in the appropriate area.
    That would be by football logic, and I won't disagree with that. But does this game follow this sort of logic too? This is the problem.
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  9. #19
    Kto
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    Cool, thanks guys, the question was to all. I forgot to mention the ARROWS but I guess you will answer the same blahblah I am really cool with ur answers, dont understand me wrong, I just have often seen confident ways what to do but seems like noone knows it really (maybe LacBuoc can teach me).
    I ve read, that def counters attack. But then, how to counter def? With attack? Questions over questions. For my team this doesnt work though. I have been burnt few times by changing to def when I needed to defend a close score. That ALWAYS went bad, so I swore not to do it anymore. This season a difficult 1:0 against a weaker unmanaged team, not my strongest 11 on the field, 15 mins before end I decide to def and counter - bam 1:1. So I always play attack against attack, it works better, but there is no counter logic

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kto View Post
    Cool, thanks guys, the question was to all. I forgot to mention the ARROWS but I guess you will answer the same blahblah I am really cool with ur answers, dont understand me wrong, I just have often seen confident ways what to do but seems like noone knows it really (maybe LacBuoc can teach me).
    I ve read, that def counters attack. But then, how to counter def? With attack? Questions over questions. For my team this doesnt work though. I have been burnt few times by changing to def when I needed to defend a close score. That ALWAYS went bad, so I swore not to do it anymore. This season a difficult 1:0 against a weaker unmanaged team, not my strongest 11 on the field, 15 mins before end I decide to def and counter - bam 1:1. So I always play attack against attack, it works better, but there is no counter logic
    https://forum.topeleven.com/top-elev...tml#post463971

    For the questions you are asking concerning what order will counter what order, like I said, there is no sort of code. You can go by football logic, but sometimes the game itself seems to go against football logic.

    One more thing: what has worked for someone before might not work for you. Take into consideration, that the situations may be different despite that it could still be weak versus strong team, same formation versus same other formation and so on. What I mean is that your in-game situation itself is different. There are many things probably hidden in this game, for example things that affects the chance of success of a team for particular match, during a particular week for a particular season other than quality, formation and orders. The situation of the game itself seems to be changing with time. I even suspect that the preference of some orders by the game are sort of random instead of going by football logic. For example, suppose you play versus a team at home for knock-out leg using defensive mentality and you win by a large score, the logic would be to stick to that mentality (and even the other orders) for the next leg if the opponent did not change anything. But, sometimes you will find out that an attacking mentality is being preferred by the game for the away leg, despite that nothing has changed on the opponent's side in terms of orders and even despite that you won by a large score using a defensive mentality for the home match. If you take such occurring into consideration, it seems that the preferred mentality itself is random.
    Last edited by Tactician; 06-20-2017 at 06:05 PM.
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