Is the Tactical Part of Top Eleven 2019 Broken?

This is meant to be a feedback collection post and not a concluding one. It is almost a month since my comeback to the game, and I am having doubts on the functioning of certain parts of this game.

According to Top Eleven 2019, arrows define the individual mentality of players. So, it is expected that if a user puts a green arrow on say an excess man, when attacking, that is when the team is in possession, he will move up more and contribute forward or provide support to attack instead of sitting deep and contribute to nothing much. But, this does not seem to work; he just sat in his defensive zone and watched the front players attacking.

Another thing is that many times this season I felt like I am not at all in connection with my team during the match apart from making substitions. Basically, the engine does what it wants instead of simulating what the manager instructed. For example, I see an area open to attack, I give order to attack that area, highlights give the opposite or something else. I see a menance, for example on a left flank, and I put a defensive arrow on a player that is supposed to come back to defend that zone, but instead he stays up while the opponent players double team on that flank and cause havoc.

Another 'funny' thing is that I have beaten a noticeable weaker team 3-0, and I put my team to play defensive with counter-attacks in the away leg but my team went down 4-0 before I turned it around to 4-3. How can this even happen? Does the engine even considers the situation and the football sense?

Sometimes I have been like clueless what to do because many things do not seem to work as expected, and some things do not seem to work at all - like a blank button with a false label.

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Originally Posted by Tactician

This is meant to be a feedback collection post and not a concluding one. It is almost a month since my comeback to the game, and I am having doubts on the functioning of certain parts of this game.

According to Top Eleven 2019, arrows define the individual mentality of players. So, it is expected that if a user puts a green arrow on say an excess man , at the attack, that is when the team is in possessikn, he will move up more and contribute forward or provide suplort to attack instead of sitting deep and contribute ti nothing much. But, this does not seem to work; he just sat in his defensive zone and watched the front players attacking.

Another thing is that many times this season I felt like I am not at all in connection with my team during the match apart from making substitions. Basically, the engine does what it wants instead of simulating what the manager instructed. For example, I see an area open to attack, I give order to attack that area, highlights give the opposite or something else. I see a menance, for example on a left flank, and I put a defensive arrow on a player that is supposed to come back to defend that zone, but instead he stays up while the opponent players double team on that flank and cause havoc.

Another 'funny' thing is that I have beaten a noticeable weaker team 3-0, and I put my team to play defensive with counter-attacks in the away leg but my team went down 4-0 before I turned it around to 4-3. How can this even happen? Does the engine even considers the situation and the football sense?

Sometimes I have been like clueless what to do because many things do not seem to work as expected, and some things do not seem to work at all - like a blank button with a false label.

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In game controls contribute 5-20% of what happens in the game. The game engines now relly on your training. 90-80% of what is simulated is an interpretation of what you trained your team to do. Nordeus is trying to make the game look real in that in real football, the more you train the easier to win.

That's how I see it.

Sent from my SM-A720F using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Nebu

In game controls contribute 5-20% of what happens in the game. The game engines now relly on your training. 90-80% of what is simulated is an interpretation of what you trained your team to do. Nordeus is trying to make the game look real in that in real football, the more you train the easier to win.

That's how I see it.

Sent from my SM-A720F using Tapatalk

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But I do not feel like a manager in his stands or on the sidelines, but more like a supporter in the top corner of the stadium shouting at his team to do this and that.

Also, training should affect the effectiveness of the players' actions in response to the instructions of the manager, but I feel like they are not even receiving the instructions. So how does this is meant to follow realism? Or maybe, during the match, all players become deaf in Top Eleven, and not only deaf, but they lose part of their vision too because they cannot even see certain things on their own?

Tactical- logical part, never existed xD

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Originally Posted by khris

Tactical- logical part, never existed xD

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That is why way back, during games, you changed passing focus go the area a player was vunerable, for example a player on yellow card. Come on Khris...

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Originally Posted by Tactician

That is why way back, during games, you changed passing focus go the area a player was vunerable, for example a player on yellow card. Come on Khris...

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I mean, as a logical, 1 formation vs another, what I did focussing passing is just as a answer to the particular match scenario, that is what set the weaknesses, don't confuse one thing, that is about "logic" in terms of tactic or avq, with the specific scenario, which can select that, you have 0% condition but it doesn't matter. Or that even with 5 defensers, you concede 5 goals... or that as usually happens, with defensive or even very defensive mentality, you achieve the match control, and then, your players attack, and viceversa, you swicth to attack, and there's no attack.

Yeah I have my own language. xD

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Originally Posted by khris

I mean, as a logical, 1 formation vs another, what I did focussing passing is just as a answer to the particular match scenario, that is what set the weaknesses, don't confuse one thing, that is about "logic" in terms of tactic or avq, with the specific scenario, which can select that, you have 0% condition but it doesn't matter. Or that even with 5 defensers, you concede 5 goals... or that as usually happens, with defensive or even very defensive mentality, you achieve the match control, and then, your players attack, and viceversa, you swicth to attack, and there's no attack.

Yeah I have my own language. xD

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But now it seems you cannot target the opponent weaknesses during the match nor protect your weaknesses. The game engine does like it wants despite your efforts as a manager during a live match. For example, like I said above, you see an area to exploit, you change instructions to work there, but nothing happens with respect to that change but the gameplay continues like it was before. You see your team is struggling in area, you instruct the player near this area to provide defensive support, but he still stays up while the opponent double teams in that area, wt... as if the buttons or instructions were blank during the match. The game is numb.

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Originally Posted by Tactician

That is why way back, during games, you changed passing focus go the area a player was vunerable, for example a player on yellow card. Come on Khris...

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Originally Posted by khris

I mean, as a logical, 1 formation vs another, what I did focussing passing is just as a answer to the particular match scenario, that is what set the weaknesses, don't confuse one thing, that is about "logic" in terms of tactic or avq, with the specific scenario, which can select that, you have 0% condition but it doesn't matter. Or that even with 5 defensers, you concede 5 goals... or that as usually happens, with defensive or even very defensive mentality, you achieve the match control, and then, your players attack, and viceversa, you swicth to attack, and there's no attack.

Yeah I have my own language. xD

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I mean, this is not tactical, focuss pressure to the player that has a yellow, cause has been selected as a target to be more aggressive, or when the oppo' GK is set to be the key player having a 9 as rating and you, sub' your GK to counter the scenario, or when the scenario has selected that u lose long passing, so you need to swicth to short o have the control, for me that not "the tactical-logical part" for me, thats just, to read the reactive side of the game which have no relation, even with the orders, cause u can perfectly have low tackling and a red card xD

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Originally Posted by Tactician

But now it seems you cannot target the opponent weaknesses during the match nor protect your weaknesses. The game engine does like it wants despite your efforts as a manager during a live match.

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It works the same as before, simply, the beatability margins, that time ago were about a 30% of distance, -distance u knew that you had 95% chances of winning a oppo'- and now the distance has been doubled to cover the mutants effect, so thats why one can draw 0-0 with a -60% team, or so.,.. and the reason why many new managers, that start playing at L1, can't understand what they need to do, having a main market of 80% players, and same time having these margins, where a -60% team in 14th position can stole your league title, as it happened to me 2-3 seasons ago, we need the "intuitive" part of the game with us again, cause has been lost.

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Originally Posted by khris

It works the same as before, simply, the beatability margins, that time ago were about a 30% of distance, -distance u knew that you had 95% chances of winning a oppo'- and now the distance has been doubled to cover the mutants effect, so thats why one can draw 0-0 with a -60% team, or so.,.. and the reason why many new managers, that start playing at L1, can't understand what they need to do, having a main market of 80% players, and same time having these margins, where a -60% team in 14th position can stole your league title, as it happened to me 2-3 seasons ago, we need the "intuitive" part of the game with us again, cause has been lost.

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Well, like I said above, I myself was clueless what to do at times because the game has been very irresponsive, but instead it continues the way it was. I feel like a supporter from the far end shouting for my team to do this or that but it seems the players do not even hear.

For comparision, take the scenario of a dog race and a roulette round. In the dog race, the trainer can influence his dog to change the outcome or to improve his rank during that race, but in the roulette round you cannot do anything (legal) to influence the ball to stop somewhere once the roulette is spun. This game engine is more like roulette with odds more in your favour if you covered more numbers on the chart; here numbers can be compared to quality. Again, like I said, I do not feel I am a manager on the sideline or in his stands area, but more like a supporter watching my team play.

so much of the game no longer makes sense. seems to be a real lack of emphasis on the amount of effort u put in. Luck seems to be the biggest influence nowdays. Far too many unreal results. your team is trained to perfection/morrale high, 15% better than the other team, you support as do your manager friends, nobodty for the opposition,...to many results go against you in that circumstane.

Arrows does not work, they give us arrows back again just because most of the managers wanted arrows back, but they are only cosmetic. If you want your player to play more in attack you should move them up on the field, but their is a trick with wingers AMR/L. If you put wingers more than half of their field, then they start playing on center as a MCs, which is very stupid. Same with DR/L, so if you play formation 4-4-2 (flat) and move your DR/L to much forward the game will see new formation 2-2-4-2. Same thing with V-style if you move AMR/L to much forward the game will see new formation 4-1-2-3 but your AMR/L shall not play as STs but more like MCs (very stupid).

If your team is playing good all the time, team form shall start droping down and you shall lose eventually. So what to do, I preffer losing in group stage of CL or in the Cup games with not so much diference. Both of my quadra seasons were not so good ass those seasons where I was winning almost every game but lost every final or semifinals.

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Originally Posted by Tactician

Well, like I said above, I myself was clueless what to do at times because the game has been very irresponsive, but instead it continues the way it was. I feel like a supporter from the far end shouting for my team to do this or that but it seems the players do not even hear.

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The game, is basically reactive, always has been like this. It basically is like a puzzle game, that select options in ON-OFF to determine what matters in a particular match scenario.

But there's many people, trying to find out a real tactical sense at what happens in the simulation, and this, as said, never existed. I think we were talking about this many time ago Tactician, to understand the game, you need to be the game xD

This never, never has been about a simulation in a tactical/logical 1vs1 sense, is not like this. Some orders, will give adv' to you. And another group, without any relation or sense with what u choose, will give the bar possession Adv' to your oppo.
It can be a sub', it can be, that game has selected Normal mentality, for u, as a key factor for that scenario, it can be, that you'll have 2 FKs and your previous job is, to find the correct man for that position, etc.

This variability, is determined by the last match ratings, which choose,in the upcoming match, how the scenario will do the players simplification. The game will check your 11, probably, will choose your key players, to appear, and the players with variable rating, will alternate the performance, been important and more decisive after a rating decrease... you can see these patterns, on those players that have 6-8-6-7-6 and try to guess who, will improve it's performance, knowing that, the simulation, works like this.

It is so extense, but, yeah, you can "be the game". xD

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Originally Posted by MNK Kaskada

Arrows does not work, they give us arrows back again just because most of the managers wanted arrows back, but they are only cosmetic. If you want your player to play more in attack you should move them up on the field, but their is a trick with wingers AMR/L. If you put wingers more than half of their field, then they start playing on center as a MCs, which is very stupid. Same with DR/L, so if you play formation 4-4-2 (flat) and move your DR/L to much forward the game will see new formation 2-2-4-2. Same thing with V-style if you move AMR/L to much forward the game will see new formation 4-1-2-3 but your AMR/L shall not play as STs but more like MCs (very stupid).

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Yeah but I want a player to be at position A without the ball (defensive support) but at position B when the team in possession (offensive support), and this can be done only by arrows (not with whole team mentality because then all players will move up or down or focus more on attack or defense), but they do nothing when I change them during a match. I am like wtf when I see the next highlights with the player still at the same position, I told you to go there when we have the ball and you are still here doing nothing. The same when a player was suppose to drop to defence to provide support when opponent has the ball, but opponent is far in his defensive zone, doing one-twos but he is still up and he does not even move.

Another thing I noticed is the ratings of players drop to red suddenly, not once but many times, despite the team is winning and continuing to score goals. The feedback from the engine is misleading.

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Originally Posted by khris

Tactical- logical part, never existed xD

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I don't agree with that. The old times it was there, playing some role.
Things have broken in some stages.
- The first was when they changed the team's display from vertical to horizontal, adding those boxes which supposed that replaced the arrows.
Nobody understood how that boxes worked.
- The second was when the mutants turned upside-down the logic of tactics/quality/stats
- The third was when they put a limit to scores vs abandoned/weak/bot teams. After that in many games a manager feels like he 's just watching a game like a supporter without any coaching powers. The abandoned/weak/bot teams could get any possible results. The advantage of the present vs an absent for a match manager seems that lost.
- The last one was when they tweak again the engine so to ignore the high skills of mutants or semi-mutants. Sometimes works, sometimes not but the thing is that the connection between skills and gameplay have lost.

Also I want to add that the old times a team with a ST in GK position and all the others oop was extremely difficult to win a game vs a normal team, even with low q . The max was a draw. This is happening more often, already few times in some of my teams which are trying to remain in the same lv league.

Well maybe tactics arent broken but screen animation is broken. For example i had mr with up arrow and seen that opponent ml is playing very good (had goal and good rating) than later i gave down arrow to my mr and than i saw in comments that my mr is blocking opponent's ml. So it's works but in other hand i didnt see any changes in live animation. So i think we shouldnt rely on live animation but pay more attention to comments during the match but the problem is that those comments are very rare :D.
Again like mentality option. It writes that attacking mentality gives more opportunities to attack but in live animation it's only show where your team start your attacks - defensive from the back, attacking - long ball to the strikers. So it;s stupid - i want play attacking but i want that my team start to build attacks from the back and not from the my strikers but in this game it isn't that way.

If you turn off 2D animation, then you shall have more (only) comments. If that is what you want.

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Originally Posted by MNK Kaskada

If your team is playing good all the time, team form shall start droping down and you shall lose eventually. So what to do, I preffer losing in group stage of CL or in the Cup games with not so much diference. Both of my quadra seasons were not so good ass those seasons where I was winning almost every game but lost every final or semifinals.

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I have noticed that last season, clean sheets on cup and superleague but lost the finals, however i have an impossible league and lost many games so that kind of contradicts your reasoning!

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Originally Posted by MNK Kaskada

If you turn off 2D animation, then you shall have more (only) comments. If that is what you want.

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I agree, it's the animations that are misleading. There seem to be a series of pre-scripted animations (we've all seen the same goal over and over again) and the game just picks the ones it thinks are most appropriate. So I don't think you can tell anything about how you're team is playing or what their positions are from the animations... for me it's just; did I score, did they score, who is having possession, that's all you can tell from the animations. The text is probably a little more informative as you can get a better idea of which players are making mistakes etc.

I also agree with Khris that this isn't a game where we can genuinely influence the tactics. We can turn toggles on and off to try and affect the outcome of the game, but they're all just factors that go in to the roll of the dice. I'd like to think that the game continues to calculate the chances of goals etc as a match is played (i.e. we can actually influence the outcome during a match) but I don't think we have any evidence of that, and in reality it's just as likely that the calculation is done before the match starts and whatever we do during a match has no effect.

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Originally Posted by tomu741

Well maybe tactics arent broken but screen animation is broken. For example i had mr with up arrow and seen that opponent ml is playing very good (had goal and good rating) than later i gave down arrow to my mr and than i saw in comments that my mr is blocking opponent's ml. So it's works but in other hand i didnt see any changes in live animation. So i think we shouldnt rely on live animation but pay more attention to comments during the match but the problem is that those comments are very rare :D.
Again like mentality option. It writes that attacking mentality gives more opportunities to attack but in live animation it's only show where your team start your attacks - defensive from the back, attacking - long ball to the strikers. So it;s stupid - i want play attacking but i want that my team start to build attacks from the back and not from the my strikers but in this game it isn't that way.

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Yeah, you saw an area that needed more defensive protection, you put a defensive arrow, the feedback should be that the player responsible for this zone go provide more defensive contribution. The same should apply for when you see that your team needs support in attacking an area, you instruct a deeper lying player to move up there with an offensive arrow, but like I said the feedback from animations is not as expected. Maybe you are right that animations are broken, or maybe both animations and the tactical instructions are broken to some extent, but whatever is wrong Nordeus should be looking into it and fix.

From my experience i would say we can influence the result during a match, but the thing is as all in life, our intention may be the best and theoretcly work but luck plays an inportant role!

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Originally Posted by NUNO FC

From my experience i would say we can influence the result during a match, but the thing is as all in life, our intention may be the best and theoretcly work but luck plays an inportant role!

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you also dont know what changes your opponent is making at the same time, assuming they are present, its when they arent present that i get frustrated with it, i've had it where my team is 2-0 up at the hour mark and without me changing anything and my oppo not present suddenly i lose 3-2, wtf?

Another example. I started the match today with mixed passing, and the passing seemed mixed but with more highlights showing long passes. Later I changed to long, and nothing much changed. I changed to short passing and nothing much changed neither, and the highlights kept showing players passing long. Does the engine consider the certain settings set before the match only or what? The only things that seem to have effect is making substitutions and the change in whole team mentality. Ah, also some parts of the animations are clearly broken because one player made at least 1 assist (I think two), including showing his playmaker icon, but then no assists were added in his statistics profile.

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Originally Posted by Tactician

Ah, also some parts of the animations are clearly broken because one player made at least 1 assist (I think two), including showing his playmaker icon, but then no assists were added in his statistics profile.

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Evidently, I have a lot of examples. 1, Player get yellow card at corner. 2, Penalty SA is swap between GKs (my GK doesn't have it, oppos GK has it, animation shows my GK has it, oppos GK doesn't have it). 3, Player get 2 yellow cards (red) but still on the field, actually another player get yellow. 4, Animation and text comments are totally out of sync.

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Originally Posted by Grandef

Evidently, I have a lot of examples. 1, Player get yellow card at corner. 2, Penalty SA is swap between GKs (my GK doesn't have it, oppos GK has it, animation shows my GK has it, oppos GK doesn't have it). 3, Player get 2 yellow cards (red) but still on the field, actually another player get yellow. 4, Animation and text comments are totally out of sync.

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All bugs that last to be fixed, i've already opnedned a thread for the corners in the bug section

Again today... I did not feel that I was influencing any part besides making substitutions. My team scored, they continued to score, but I did not feel that I was in any part of it. I see parts where I could improve, I make changes, no response at all; the team plays as if I was not the manager. I do not feel any connection. I feel that some things are either disabled or broken in this game.

I still believe there's a tactical element to it. I had to maneuver some round-robin wins against higher rated opponents in the past couple of seasons and if I wasn't there to change the tempo, to change the player, to change the set-piece taker, to change the mentality and formation- we would have lost like it suggested on paper. But, because I was there, I was able to edge out the result needed to advance which probably made the cocky manager who assumed he was favorite and didn't attend pissed off. But I think that, since this update, it just recently began feeling this way. Last update, it felt scripted like I would put in a new player for a player rated 5.3 and it was like it didn't matter and within seconds the sub would go from 6.5 to 5.3 as well....

Sometimes I get the feeling that the game engine has decided what the optimum formation, tactics and orders are the 'best' for you for that match and you have to guess what they are - once you have found them you get a really good performance and result.

For instance, recently in a match I was much better Quality than the opponent, but they were leading 2-0 and I was in for a right old Trolling. I noticed that the two opposition wide defenders had high match ratings, so switched to attacking through the centre exclusively, instead of mixed - into a 3DC-DMC central defence, which in normal circumstances was a complete no-no. I won 4-2...

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Originally Posted by talisman

Sometimes I get the feeling that the game engine has decided what the optimum formation, tactics and orders are the 'best' for you for that match and you have to guess what they are - once you have found them you get a really good performance and result.

For instance, recently in a match I was much better Quality than the opponent, but they were leading 2-0 and I was in for a right old Trolling. I noticed that the two opposition wide defenders had high match ratings, so switched to attacking through the centre exclusively, instead of mixed - into a 3DC-DMC central defence, which in normal circumstances was a complete no-no. I won 4-2...

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So, it could be that whatever were selected to be the optimal orders were random rather than based on the opponent, that is, the engine just choose randomly what will be the best orders rather than logical.

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Originally Posted by Tactician

So, it could be that whatever were selected to be the optimal orders were random rather than based on the opponent, that is, the engine just choose randomly what will be the best orders rather than logical.

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For those matches where the play bears no resemblance to 'normal' play in that the tactics that you know would be suitable for the opponent's Quality, formation and possible tactics and orders is patently having no reasonable effect, it seems that a certain random element to the options for countering what the opponent is actually playing like has been introduced.

When it gets to about the 55-60th minute in matches like this that I try to throw in a random change myself to see what the effect is - the 'desperate times call for desperate measures' moment - sometimes it comes off. I'm still trying to get my head round the theory myself. If I get any more insights I'll let y'all know.

I understand how you can be frustrated but you should also kind of put yourself in the shoes of your players if that makes sense. Usually when I see something I don't like, I don't switch tactics too much or too often. Imagine being the player and you practiced a game plan for x amount of days and on the day of the game your manager is yelling at you to do other things frantically. Now you have to adjust away from the plan and to the new plan your coach gave you, meanwhile your opponent is just doing what they were instructed since kick-off and playing comfortably, beating you as you adjust. That's what I imagine so I usually just ride out a bad situation and sometimes it fixes itself. If I get beat too often or concede a goal, I call a condition bonus, too me that's the equivalent of smacking your team on the head and getting them to kick tactics and skills in overdrive. If that doesn't do anything, that's when I start thinking about going more attacking or subbing out poor performers.