there are or are not ? please tell your reason ;)
thx for discussion
there are or are not ? please tell your reason ;)
thx for discussion
Doesn't seem like this forum has a lot of high level managers commenting on formations. I hardly consider myself at level 14, a high level manager. Its definitely a very interesting question, and i'm very interested to see where the discussion goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by minz90
Regarding counter-formations, I'd be surprised if they didn't exist. It's based upon the logic of I've had plenty of success playing the counter-formation strategy, so the basis of my system resolves around the theory of counter-formations.
However, this wouldn't stand up to any sort of scientific analysis. To actually test the effectiveness of counter-formations, i'd have to isolate the variable of counter-formations. This means playing the formation that is countered by my opponent's formation, which maintain the others variables (morale, condition, win bonus, etc...) It would also have to span a significant duration of matches to obtain any substantial quantifiable data, so the outlier games against low Q teams, teams with abnormally good or bad form and troll results don't skew the data.
I played 9 pretty successful seasons using counter formation so I believe there are counter formations. Won 7 titles, 2 caps, 2 CHL and only once had best team in league. Most often there were 3-4 better teams than me.
I ve a 4-4-2 C Team in LVL 6. Orders: normal, mixed, own half, short, hard. no arrows. all Player have 5-6*. it s hard to beat. 5x league Champion, 1x CL Champion and 1x Cup Champion
My other 4-4-2 C Team is in LVL 9. Orders: normal, mixed, own half, Long, hard. Red arrows on DL, DR, ML, MR. all Players have 4-5*. it s also hard to beat. but These orders are not effectivly every match. Legue between place 2-5.
My 4-3n-3 Team is in LVL 25. orders: normal, mixed, own half, Long + Counter attack, hard. Blue arrow on middle MC and red arrow on middle ST. Now the players have 4-5* and the results are better. Last season place 2 in legue.
With These Teams i dont watch the games! Only with my Team on lvl 33.
And my experience is: You only have to Counter the orders, but not the Formation. I can beat all Formations with 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1 V and 4-4-2 C.
minz90, what formation and orders would you put against the following formation?
GK-2(DC)-3W(DML, CDM, DMR)-2(MC)-1(AM)-2(ST)
Currently this season i allways Play 4-4-2 with the idea to Play allways Counter attack.
I allways start the game with These orders: Attacking, mixed, own half, Long, hard, zonal, force Counter. no arrows
Then you have to look at the stats and the pressure. Sometimes you have to Change Long => mixed
Or you have to set 1 red arrow on ST and 1 blue arrow on other ST.
In the second half you can Play normal.
But be careful: If your Opponent scores first, you can have Problems, because you Play with Counter attacks.
Thats my philosphy. whats your? maybe i can help you with orders
Attacking, long passing and counter attack...please don't help ppl with ordersQuote:
Originally Posted by minz90
That's my style to play. You can try it If you want. After 5 games in cl i ve scored 31 goals and in league 42 goals After 9 games. And in cup i ve scored more then 25 goals After 6 games. I always try some New orders. And i found out this is successful.
You need to know that attacking means that your Players will work more the Players in middlefield are skilled well in defense, so They are good in pressing own half. With Playing attacking i want some dangerous counter Attacks. Long Balls with counter are successful Most of Times, because sometimes you will lose to many balls with mixed.
But give it a try. For me it is very successful. After scoring some goals or in 2 . half i always play normal, cause i dont want to lose to many Kondition.
Jan, what would you put against the formation I have mentioned above?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Daněk
Logically, attacking and force counter attack should not be used together. But, this game seems to be so unrealistic at times. So, it may have worked for minz90.
Yeah, it can work, but its nonsense...attacking is best with short passing and no counterQuote:
Originally Posted by Tactician
Personally I don't believe in counter formations as I believe if you are good enough, ppl should counter you... :D
Also, I've won the league by playing "attacking, force counter attack, hard tackling", so there's no wrong or right in terms of orders as long as it works for u.
3-5-2V or 4-5-1V.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactician
I'll go 3-5-2V thru flanks, attacking, short passing, hard, whole pitch, no counter, no offside, zonal
blue arrow on one mc, red aml/amr
but depends on strenght of teams
Counter formations are a load of S#!T.... Im level 25 and tried countering opponents formations and didnt work. I tend to stick to 2 or 3 formations.. Whatever formation fits your players style. It may take sometime to find out what formation it is, but once youve got it, trust me your opponents will find it hard to beat you. So in my opinion, I couldnt bother with counter formations.
I faced this advanced diamond formation twice so far against the same opponent. The opponent is of lower quality, but he caused a lot of problems. He scored 5 goals in the two matches combined. He scored 2 goals in 1 match despite playing with one man less for about one half.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Daněk
Actually its almost 4-1-2-1-2ND so I'll counter it same wayQuote:
Originally Posted by Tactician
Yes, but this one seem to counter the V version of 4-5-1 and 3-5-2, given the amount of problems he caused despite his team is of lower quality (by at least 1 star).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Daněk
Attack through the middle bud... Could try 4-1-3n-2. Get the possession in the midfield and see if they able to create the chances. Your opponent obviously likes 4-1-2-1-2 ND but was getting beaten by the v formations, so moved up his DL/R to DML/R, which we all know is able to handle the AML/R.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactician
I thought of using 4-1-2-3 against him for the 2nd match. But, I did not take the risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylos
Jan and Kylos: thanks for the replies.
I still can't find how he scored so many goals though because at the back it should have been solid with the V-style formations.
I can't believe DML/R countering AML/R so much better than DL/R that V formations aren't effective. So 4-1-2-3 with long passesQuote:
Originally Posted by Tactician
DML/R can handle AML/R and DL/R no... nordeus logic...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylos
But it has. For the 2nd match, my wingers were at scout level and his wingbacks were rated 3 and 4 stars, and yet they were 'shut off'. His wingbacks scored a 7 and a 9. My wingers were rated 7.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Daněk
Yes. This is wrong. Maybe for Nordeus, the DR and DL just sit at the back and let the opposing wingers run freely in front of them, doing whatever they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Daněk
Exactly my point, so attacking through the middle with 4-1-3n-2 or Jan Danek's formation (4-1-2-3)... Worth trying.
What formations and orders would you put against : 3W-1-2-1-3
DL-DC-DR-DMC-MC-MC-AMC-ST-ST-ST
And if the opponent scores first unmark the counter attack ?Quote:
Originally Posted by minz90
wow.. what an order.. Depends on his rating too..Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefanut Stefanut
4-1-3w-2.. Wonder if he would go with Attacking mentality... seems its a 3 striker 1 amc... this is a really attacking formation.. ill counter with 4 Defenders and 1 DMC with red arrows..
ML & MR with red arrows... Mentality Defensive (Hard Defending if stronger team)... Force counter.. Mix Passing... Defending zonal for sure...
As i can see weak on the flanks so down both flanks....
Regarding counter formations, I take it as just guides. I see what my team is comfortable with. Like season 1 till 3 my team was liking attacking mentality. So i carried attacking mentality to season 4, i dropped out of no 7 in the league mid through the season and barely made it through league stage in CL.
I tried defensive mentality and normal mentality, it worked and manage to save myself up to 3rd in the league and 2nd in champions league. Orders plays a big part. One of my Top Eleven mate only plays 4-4-2 and had success going into every season either winning, 2nd or 3rd place with almost minimal losses... I asked him and he told me, Orders seems to play a big part.. He learnt that in season 2... I only learn at season 4..
So I shall say, take counter formations as a guide only but look at the opponents and compare with counter formations. I like to make use of arrows cause they could work (with the right team).
I also found out that arrows works best with players that can play the positions the arrow points too and it is really effective!
Anyway i am just level 5, I just share what i have found out in the game. Don't flame me!
3-5-2 v style, as said above, is the opponent weaker or stronger?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefanut Stefanut
3n defenders should be enough against the 3 ST, if your Mc's are stronger, they should also keep possession for you. Attack the wings with the AMR/L. 2 ST will give his lone DC a problem.
Yes That's right. I ve an 4-4-2 team on lvl 6 that is also Hard to beat. I dont watch the games. No arrows. Normal, mixed, own half, Short, hard, zonal. Very Balanced. It can help you If you cannot watch the games
Yes you should unmark counter attackQuote:
Originally Posted by Stefanut Stefanut
minz90, what orders would you use for 4-3-2W-1?
You can try normal, mixed or down both flanks, own half, mixed (+ counter attack) or short when you cannot watch the games, normal or hard, zonal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactician
Arrows: i always Start without.
You can try. Red on dl and dr + sometimes blue on middle mc.
Or Red on aml and amr + sometimes Red on st when He doesnt strike
There are also some other Option when you want to press whole pitch. Whole pitch is Not successful against some opponents. Your victories can be higher or lower
I'm considering using that formation against a team that uses a modified 4-3-3. Do you think that it will work?Quote:
Originally Posted by minz90
see forum thread: http://forum.topeleven.com/formation...argin-2-a.html
Yes why Not. I ve beaten 4-3-3 with 4-5-1 v, 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactician
But I ve beaten mourinhos 4-3-2-1 with 4-3-3. Result 6:0. Normal, middle or mixed, own half, Short, hard, zonal. When I play long balls i only Win 1:0. Hope this experience will help you.
I think mourinho plays normal, mixed, own half, mixed, normal, zonal.
Maybe That means you should play short to get more possesion. Otherwise the opponent will get lots of balls at his strikers when you play mixed , because you will lose more balls.
Thanks. So, I won't be using this formation; I need another formation.Quote:
Originally Posted by minz90
minz90, what is the strongest orders to play a 4-3-3 against the modified 4-3-3 that I have mentioned in the other thread?
When I play 3-5-2 v , i always go attacking, Mixed , full pitch, Short, hard , zonal. No counter no offside. I always Start with Red arrows on aml and amr. Sometimes you only need on Single Red arrow on your Best striker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactician
I think this formation is what you need in your case.
I used attacking and full pitch pressing in the second half; he scored another goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by minz90
I have used red arrows on wingers (and I even tried an arrow on the two STs at some point during the match).