Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234
Results 31 to 39 of 39
Like Tree16Likes

Thread: Easy fix for manipulating division and cup seedings

  1. #31
    Spanish Forum Moderator khris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    15,594
    Quote Originally Posted by mcdoomer View Post
    That seems overly complicated, mate. I spit balled some ideas with my coworkers that also play the game and we think that the easiest fix is simply to add the statistic: Average Best Possbile Eleven Quality (AvSEQ) Over Time - AvBPEQOT * 1,02 per competition won that season. So, a team with 175 AvBPEQOT that wins the triplet, effectively would be ranked as 185 AvBPEQOT.

    Basically, the game only needs to start recording the quality of your Best Possible Eleven, Sum it and divided it by 11 and recording that average (1 goalie, 3 or 4 defenders, 3 or 5 mids, 1 or 4 attackers, this comprises all possible legal formations, the game already has implemented the system to know ilegal formations from legal ones).

    If you complete a season with 175 AvBPEQOT (including cup and champions league), you would need to tank under 50% for 2 full seasons to make it worth manipulating the seedings. Which seems a price too high to pay for the benefit, considering if you bring the team back to 175 AvBPEQOT, next season the lowest level opponents would be around 115% (125% if you won a few titles). Not a walk in the park anymore. And this is based on calculating just on the first 4 seasons of this system. After some 20 seasons it gets incredibly more complicated, you need to tank a lot more seasons to get the same effect, since you might have more competitions won.

    Bottom line, if the game tracks what You Would Normally be Doing, instead of What You Do, it makes it a lot more even field for all.
    "Basically, the game only needs to start recording the quality of your Best Possible Eleven,"

    The problem is that this is the problem, knowing the game lol can't record this amount of data.

    Thats why I suggested something that, is not more complicated really, simply give to the team a min value for his level related with the market source of players.

    Then the servers, as always, do the list of teams of the server, starting for the best level, grouping the teams in 64 using the criteria to do the draws that now would be use this value.

    Really, what you suggest is unimplementable as would need a big data recording...

  2. #32
    Super Moderator PricopGeorgeCătălin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Romania
    Posts
    12,897
    A good thread that engaged many players and many different opinions which is good as we can have more points of view.

    My opinion in this case is that we should not blame the managers.
    Managers just adjust their style of playing according with their valid options and as long they do not break game rules, they should not be blamed.

    mcdoomer, solution is not actually a new one, it's been suggested couple of times in the past and yes would probably create a more balanced system but wouldn't really fix the problem as people will always find solutions to dodge it.

    My question would go for mcdoomer and people who support his idea.

    What would you get if they will do that? Would be just another Champions League competition but without group stages. Same opponents level, same quality for another trophy.

    Without being offensive. Did you guys saw a Cup Competitions? Is not for weak teams, Cup should highlight best teams only and from time to time some underdogs.

    Cups shouldn't be really a fair competition where everyone is on the same level with same chances of winning but it should be a much harder trophy to achieve and highlight those with good quality teams or at least that's how Cup is in real life.

    I still remember the CUP back in days when I started to play the game. I lost all the Cups but every season I got closer and closer and this was a great feeling but at the moment for me CUP is just another Champions League without group stages. Same levels, same quality, different trophy design.
    khris and Temidayo_ like this.
    Learn how to play with us on www.topeleven.info and find out the best informations
    Orlova FC - onForum - LIKE Orlova FC - onYoutube - SUBSCRIBE Orlova FC - onFacebook

  3. #33
    Greek Forum Moderator nikolgiorgos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    17,714
    Khris, do you believe that I can read your suggestion ?
    not really
    Actually this is only one among maybe other ten things the devs should change (draws, training, skills/sa, formation/tactics, game-play/rng, asso, tanking, support, auctions, negotiations ...) .
    So better create a new TE from the beginning or bring back the old TE 2014
    khris likes this.
    Καλώς ήρθατε στο Ελληνικό φόρουμ
    http://forum.topeleven.com/%CE%93%CE...%B4%CE%B1.html

  4. #34
    Rookie
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    95
    Quote Originally Posted by PricopGeorgeCătălin View Post
    A good thread that engaged many players and many different opinions which is good as we can have more points of view.

    My opinion in this case is that we should not blame the managers.
    Managers just adjust their style of playing according with their valid options and as long they do not break game rules, they should not be blamed.

    mcdoomer, solution is not actually a new one, it's been suggested couple of times in the past and yes would probably create a more balanced system but wouldn't really fix the problem as people will always find solutions to dodge it.

    My question would go for mcdoomer and people who support his idea.

    What would you get if they will do that? Would be just another Champions League competition but without group stages. Same opponents level, same quality for another trophy.

    Without being offensive. Did you guys saw a Cup Competitions? Is not for weak teams, Cup should highlight best teams only and from time to time some underdogs.

    Cups shouldn't be really a fair competition where everyone is on the same level with same chances of winning but it should be a much harder trophy to achieve and highlight those with good quality teams or at least that's how Cup is in real life.

    I still remember the CUP back in days when I started to play the game. I lost all the Cups but every season I got closer and closer and this was a great feeling but at the moment for me CUP is just another Champions League without group stages. Same levels, same quality, different trophy design.
    CL and Cup, should allow teams with lower Q to compete as underdogs, of course. I mean, thats what you get in real life. I dont see any problem in that, and you might be misunderstanding how my solution would work, as it would have no effect on that. Again, if the seedings are based in a number you can trust, and I personally dont see any other number than being the "Quality of your Potential Best Eleven" (you can run, but you cant hide...), then the game has a solid Stat to do everything else. If you want a cup drawing with a 30% threshold, go for it! 100%? No problem! CL seedings with 4 slots for very low AvBPEQOT? Go for it!

    To me, I'm a numbers person, I love statistics, curves, bollinger lines, derivations, and all that crap that gives freshmen kids the nightmares when then start university level maths, and I personally do not see any other way that could quickly (and be quickly I mean implement now and start seeing the benefits in 5 or 6 seasons) fix this without, like Nikos wisely said, just creating a new TE. But this is just another "spreadsheet game" and those kind of stats based engines can be tweaked forever, as long as you add stats. Removing might brake the engine, but adding... usually just requires a bit more storage.

    Again, this might be a totally naive way, as I havent seen the engine myself, nor I obviously can test this solution, but in theory, seems the most bang for the least buck.

  5. #35
    Spanish Forum Moderator khris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    15,594
    Quote Originally Posted by PricopGeorgeCătălin View Post
    A good thread that engaged many players and many different opinions which is good as we can have more points of view.

    My opinion in this case is that we should not blame the managers.
    Managers just adjust their style of playing according with their valid options and as long they do not break game rules, they should not be blamed.

    mcdoomer, solution is not actually a new one, it's been suggested couple of times in the past and yes would probably create a more balanced system but wouldn't really fix the problem as people will always find solutions to dodge it.

    My question would go for mcdoomer and people who support his idea.

    What would you get if they will do that? Would be just another Champions League competition but without group stages. Same opponents level, same quality for another trophy.

    Without being offensive. Did you guys saw a Cup Competitions? Is not for weak teams, Cup should highlight best teams only and from time to time some underdogs.

    Cups shouldn't be really a fair competition where everyone is on the same level with same chances of winning but it should be a much harder trophy to achieve and highlight those with good quality teams or at least that's how Cup is in real life.

    I still remember the CUP back in days when I started to play the game. I lost all the Cups but every season I got closer and closer and this was a great feeling but at the moment for me CUP is just another Champions League without group stages. Same levels, same quality, different trophy design.

    "Cups shouldn't be really a fair competition where everyone is on the same level with same chances of winning"

    can you explain me a cuantic theory to make me believer of the idea that the cup should be for the +5 levels team that join my cup after manipulate the draw, having my team a market level 35 and he a 40?

    the point here is that actually the manipulators are rewarded, not the best managers, as would be if a formula like the one I suggest is applied...¿?

  6. #36
    Super Moderator PricopGeorgeCătălin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Romania
    Posts
    12,897
    mcdoomer, your suggestion is something that clearly make sense and probably all together will create a more fairly system, if we speak of manipulations. Yet! Would still be possible but clearly will ask lots of more resources and time from those who are doing it.

    ... yet, on another side there would be like lots of side effects, for example I can give you my case, I always change my team at the end of the season so this season I can play with avg. of 7 stars and next season with 5, in this case I will end up in a big disadvantage.

    Honestly I would prefer that competitions would be with random opponents as it used to be. Having a random mix of qualities is clearly the best and by far the most fairly one.

    Anyway, once again thanks for opening the thread, you clearly made people talking about this subject and that's great!

    khris, is actually not that hard to improve the CUP system and I am pretty sure there can be solutions even if you manipulate the quality.
    One of the solutions would be to simple follow real life CUP competitions.

    Let's take a look at Copa del Rey cause you are from Spain and is a great example as well. If I am not wrong in Copa Del Rey you have teams from 1st to 4th divisions and this is pretty much the same in all big leagues. This can go very well in Top Eleven and for example would be like:

    Season 1 - Level 1 vs Level 1

    Season 2 - Level 2 vs Level 2;3;4;5
    Season 3 - Level 3 vs Level 2;3;4;5
    Season 4 - Level 4 vs Level 2;3;4;5
    Season 5 - Level 5 vs Level 2;3;4;5

    Season 6 - Level 6 vs Level 6,7,8,9
    Season 7 - Level 7 vs Level 6,7,8,9
    Season 8 - Level 8 vs Level 6,7,8,9
    Season 9 - Level 9 vs Level 6,7,8,9

    .... and so on. This is probably the closest you can get to real life Cups, as I believe in Cup is normal to have different levels like in real life we have different leagues joining the CUP.

    • Advantage for Nordeus as people will invest more to increase their chances once they get closer to the highest level in their CUP level .
    • Advantage for Underdog teams once they get to the highest level in their CUP level.
    • Advantage for those who are using money as their investment will finally make sense and separate them from the rest of managers as would be fairly if you invested more then the others.
    • Increasing Cup dynamic, realism, difficulty and trophy value.
    • Increasing Treble value by a lot as it would be much harder by following this pattern.
    • Decreasing the effectiveness of manipulation by a lot in CUP and as side effect in other competitions as well.


    Would clearly not erase the manipulations but would clearly decrease it...
    Last edited by PricopGeorgeCătălin; 04-09-2018 at 12:35 AM.
    Learn how to play with us on www.topeleven.info and find out the best informations
    Orlova FC - onForum - LIKE Orlova FC - onYoutube - SUBSCRIBE Orlova FC - onFacebook

  7. #37
    Rookie
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    95
    Quote Originally Posted by PricopGeorgeCătălin View Post
    ... yet, on another side there would be like lots of side effects, for example I can give you my case, I always change my team at the end of the season so this season I can play with avg. of 7 stars and next season with 5, in this case I will end up in a big disadvantage.
    Hi mate. Can you elaborate so I can crunch some numbers for you? In my scenarios if you do this every season (oscilate between 140 and 100 in your best eleven), the only result would be you constantly be placed with 6 star average teams League, so at worst you would be 20% under, at best 20% over. If you mean something else, then I didnt understand you I'm afraid

    Loved your suggestion for Cup, but I think it would end up causing a lot of frustration on players on levels 2, 3, 6, 7, 10, 11, etc. Better to just randomly select Quality pots. So lets say, your Potencial Best Eleven AvgQ is 110%. So cup would be seeded with 33% 100-120%, 33% 80-100%, 33% under 80%, but all from the same level, or adjacent levels in case the seedings couldnt be filled. Same on CL, with perhaps more quality degrees, so you only have lets say 4 potential underdogs in the final 32. Just spit balling here

    Thanks for appreciating bringing this forward. Ironically I'm having the most nail bitting League season I can remember this year. I just wish every season on every League could be like that for everyone of you!

  8. #38
    Super Moderator PricopGeorgeCătălin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Romania
    Posts
    12,897
    @mcdoomer, true but that marge would be more like 20% + more in quality for my opponents and is not less. Facing 4,5 opponents in row with this kind of disadvantage would be constantly a pain in the ass. Also facing somebody with a level above me constantly when I apply this scenario would decrease my chances by a lot every time I am doing it as he will have the transfermarket advantage on his side.

    Regarding my suggestion the game was pretty much the same when I started, same idea but way more radical, that time, level one always faced level one but after that the level difference between us was huge, even +15 levels or more. Doing it the same but on a smaller scale would be better I guess.

    Despite that huge level difference, the CUP was loved by many managers cause it had a special charm. Now is quite gone!
    Learn how to play with us on www.topeleven.info and find out the best informations
    Orlova FC - onForum - LIKE Orlova FC - onYoutube - SUBSCRIBE Orlova FC - onFacebook

  9. #39
    Rookie
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    95
    Quote Originally Posted by PricopGeorgeCătălin View Post
    @mcdoomer, true but that marge would be more like 20% + more in quality for my opponents and is not less. Facing 4,5 opponents in row with this kind of disadvantage would be constantly a pain in the ass. Also facing somebody with a level above me constantly when I apply this scenario would decrease my chances by a lot every time I am doing it as he will have the transfermarket advantage on his side.
    You mean this cups, right, mate? In League you would never face oponnents so strong you couldnt make up for the difference with some heavy training. Of course they can train too, but training is more effective in lower Q levels, in general, of course.
    Last edited by mcdoomer; 04-09-2018 at 02:42 AM.

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234