Mmmhhh... I'll never understand the "logic" of this game.

[HateMeNow]

From what I understand, mentality affects your team's positioning and behaviour towards your opponent right ?

So why is it bad to play "Attacking" with a non offensive formation ? I mean, your team can still assume an attacking behaviour, and positioning, right ?
For example your defenders might defend a bit closer to the midfield line and would even cross that line on occasions, if a pass is less effective (a bit like what my defender did, in the match I described in the OP). Your attackers will basically sit in the opponent's goal and wait for passes, and midfielders would play a bit higher and press towards the AM section.

With a defensive formation, you'll have more defenders obviously, but why should that necessary be bad for an attacking mentality, if things works like described above ? All they'll do is try to press more when they have the ball, by helping the DM section and even the midfield area.

When they don't have the ball, they won't just stand around, and wait for it to come at their feet. They'll naturally resume a defensive position and try to get it back, but as soon as they get it, they'll resume the pressing yet again.
This is how I picture it from your description, so why is it bad to play offensive with a defensive formation and vice versa ?

Sure if you play offensive with an offensive formation, you'll have more players doing the pressing in the opponent's half of the field, but like you said, you'll also be more vulnerable to counter-attacks.
However, with a defensive formation, although your pressing would be less effective, your defense would still remain much stronger, even though you have an attacking mentality, allowing you to block much more counter-attacks. Don't you agree? That is not a "disadvantage" at all. It's just as valid as any other formation.

Yes, but it is a contraddiction. It's like asking you to make a cake with just one egg. Surely, you can pull out something but that will never even get close to a real cake after all. Same goes for having a defensive formation and using an offensive mentality: in real soccer, your players would be confused, while in T11, it's the engine which gets confused.

Basically, your module would be a lot more proficient playing defensive/counter.

[kebess]

Again, I don't see why. All you're doing is pressing harder when you have the ball, and avoiding more effectively counter attacks when you lose it.

IRL, it wouldn't be confusing at all since DMs are natural at playing on the midfield section as well (they "always" have the "red arrow", so to speak). A DM in real life is just as good as a Midfielder most of the time.

And in real life, when a team changes mentality they almost never change their formation. They can easily go on an attacking strike for 20 min, press like mad, and then resume a more normal or defensive mentality, if it was productive. So no, it just doesn't work that way in real life, that's for sure.

Basically, I think we'll have to agree to disagree, : )

[HateMeNow]

Again, I don't see why. All you're doing is pressing harder when you have the ball, and avoiding more effectively counter attacks when you lose it.

IRL, it wouldn't be confusing at all since DMs are natural at playing on the midfield section as well (they "always" have the "red arrow", so to speak). A DM in real life is just as good as a Midfielder most of the time.

And in real life, when a team changes mentality they almost never change their formation. They can easily go on an attacking strike for 20 min, press like mad, and then resume a more normal or defensive mentality, if it was productive. So no, it just doesn't work that way in real life, that's for sure.

Basically, I think we'll have to agree to disagree, : )

In real life, what changes basing on the mentality of the team is the zone where you are used to play and press the most. An offensive team like ie Barcelona has as main territory of play the part of the field going from half pitch to near the opponent's area. It's there that they do press, circulate the ball, and basically play the game. Now as matter of facts, how many offensive players has Barcelona out and how many defensive ones? It's actually 3-4-2-1, 3-1-5-1, or 3-6-1. If they'd actually use a 3-3 system, even with the DMs supporting the attackers they wouldn't have enough people to make the game in that zone.

Accordingly, using an offensive mentality in T11 with a defensive formation is using that formation's power halved. Your DMC may have a red arrow, but this helps making them in the offensive just a MC MR ML. There still lack AMs to support between the lines which could usually be either AMR/AML/AMC or MR/ML on red arrows. As much as a red arrow can help, it won't ever amount to a player covering the red arrowed role + a further one ahead.

[kebess]

In real life, what changes basing on the mentality of the team is the zone where you are used to play and press the most. An offensive team like ie Barcelona has as main territory of play the part of the field going from half pitch to near the opponent's area. It's there that they do press, circulate the ball, and basically play the game. Now as matter of facts, how many offensive players has Barcelona out and how many defensive ones? It's actually 3-4-2-1, 3-1-5-1, or 3-6-1. If they'd actually use a 3-3 system, even with the DMs supporting the attackers they wouldn't have enough people to make the game in that zone.

Why? Of course they'd have enough people to make the game in that zone. In a real match, do you see 6 players standing on a straight line like this ? :

------x

-x-x-x-x-x-x

----x-x-x--

Of course not. You have at least 3, 4 players from that midfield line playing on the DM/AM area.
A 3-6-1, is always really some 3-2-2-2-1, or 3-1-3-2-1, or 3-3-2-1-1, etc... Those DMs/AMs have either red or blue arrows to help make the game on the midfield/AM area of the pitch.

You'll never have 6 "real" MCs, and whenever they'll lose the ball you'll see the DMs running back to defend the lower midfield zone, that's why they are called "Defending Midfielders". That's how it works usually -- you'll never see 6, or even 5, true MCs.

[khris]

As I ever and ever and forever say here,,,, the control of midfield is veeeeery important. So, your team and his team, really was a 50%-50% posibilities... and,,, usually when I put hard attacking mentality I loose posesion ball... but in your case, is something of good luck, and as I said, if you see your midfield, and his midfield... you can see a big difference, and for me this is the key.
at now I am discovering that I can win a 4-4-2 (usually complicated for me....-.-'' ) if I put blue arrow to all the MC's... cos I've more control in the match...
so, you know what I think (^-^)

[Cat Harrison]

This is an interesting discussion, I like reading different ideas on how the heck this game works! Thanks ya'll for making me think a bit more about the orders mechanisms.

[cracicot]

It is nowhere like a question what you're asking. You are missing the whole meaning of team orders.

You keep treating T11 as a RPG or MMORPG game thinking that this or that mentality will affect/boost some of your players but it's far from what it does (should do). I do think there is nothing hard to catch. The mentality you use doesn't boost ****, doesn't get players better. It only can BETTER fit into your module.

Expecially, it influences the way the AI considers your team's movements and actions (towards the goal pressing or waiting to defend), but specifically it challenges your opponent's orders. That kind of clash too is randomized and calculated into the engine's work.
A team playing attacking mentality will mostly pressure more against a team with normal one, finding some spaces.
Reversely, a defensive mentality going on counter will leave the initiative to the offensive mentality team BUT will give less spaces and, above all, provide dangerous counters.
Normal mentality gives you an "equal" amount of chanches for and against, making it balanced with spaces found and conceided.

In the end, mentality is just a way to counter the opponent's mentality, and this is where you have to bet: the most interesting part of the matches is to be able to figure out your opponent's orders before hand, and among all, the changes during the live match. Many of those defeats where people claim "i used a right counter and right orders for my module" are simply losses born by not being able to read the opponent's orders.
As examples, many people bitches about losing to 4-4-2 flat believing the sistem is alwais played through both flanks and whole pitch, but many times i tried playing it with through middle/offensive mentality and smashed easily the ND, while the 3-1-4-2 made me suffer.

Ofc, this applies when facing equal qualities on both sides and expecially balanced orders/setups.



Rather, you pretended me to answer immediatly while i do not work on the forums rather than real life, so sorry if i was late!



1)Of course they are theories, cause if they weren't there wouldn't be a point into playing or asking on forums. But they are theories taken from seasons over seasons tests while considering ONLY matches against stronger or same quality opponents.

2)As first istance, you are arguing posing given circumstances which aren't the neither the normality nor the standard of the game. It's obvious that if you are facing someone who set up an illogical tactic/module you're bound to win more or less with whatever orders you use. As for you, before talking about your experiences you should see first if you took examples from fighting weaker, same or higher quality teams. As example i wouldn't mind to see your CUP road and results as to compare since for me that is the only territory where almost all the matches are equally balanced.

3) Captain obvious again. Ofc it is a matter of trial and error but more specifically as i already stated you should consider only same or higher Quality teams, although such assumptions wouldn't make much sense. WHat i posted earlier is a sum taken considering only my RR CUP experiences as as i said already League has too many differences in powers and so does the CL apart for those 2-3 good teams you might find and not even face till the final.

So far, i faced teams up to 20Q better than mine and most of the times i've beaten them with what i considered a good counter-tactic and counter-formations. Ofc, quality is what in the ends weights more than any else and eventually in the away matches i suffered more and sometimes lost, but never by a gap wider than 1 goal even against 20Q + difference for them. That is why i do think what i write has not 100%, but at least 60% righteousness. As proof, so far i NEVER once lost playing home against a way stronger team than mine.

As for your orders, whenever i tried playing attacking mentality in an away match vs stronger or equal teams i alwais had my ass handled or won nearly on a balanced match.

EDIT: forgot to add, that ofc this could apply when the Engine actually works normally or at least when Nordeus isn't using poor customers as live examples testing out new features. WHen the engine becomes troll, all i said above is as useful as fried **** sticks.

Dude, now who is captain obvious...and I thought I was verbose! The difference is I dont talk ****.

The one true thing you mentioned is that quality makes the difference.

Almost everyone I know that doesnt have ESP cannot know the opponents tactics/instructions and you can only try to predict them based on the formation. Sometimes you guess correct and upset a higher quality team, other times you guess wrong and get your ass handed to you. Not to mention the troll game engine decides to rear its ugly head at the worst of times producing losses where you should easily have won, regardless of the tactics/instructions, based purely on quality.

I will humbly apologize for anything I say if you prove to me that you are a dev on this game with Nordeus, because thats how you come across with your matter-of-factness about things we can only speculate on. We all have our gut feelings on how these tactics/instructions work and until Nordeus confirms or denies them, they are all just theories, regardless of your experience.

I, more than anyone, want to know how this game works and I have tried and tested numerous things to find things out. At the end of the day, this is a matrix based results format that uses penalties and bonuses based on your choices of tactics and formation to produce results.

Think about it: you have 10Q more than the other team, full morale, full condition, full win bonus, proper counter to his 4-4-2 with a 3-1-4-2 with normal intructions and mentality...you should win 4 of 5 games at least...but that is because your "+"'s outweigh the opponent's "+"'s when the game engine adds up the total and decides who wins.

For some reason the devs have programmed some sort of random element to the game that allows troll results, and this aspect is illogical and unwanted. Of course we all want to win every game against greater quality teams but it happens too often and usually for reasons unknown instead of known reasons. I see too many troll results with illogical and fantastic incidents that prove that the game is not as complicated as you make it out to be = LOL teams winning 5-1 with 9 men against 11 higher quality players using a counter formation that works 9 times out of 10? These results should not happen on the WORST of days, let alone happen as often as they do. Explain that before you go into detail about the games instructions/tactics.

FYI, you DIDNT answer his question. He asked if you knew how how it works(mentality) or not. You only need to answer a simple "yes" or "no". OF course you know the consequences of saying "yes" or "no" to a question like that, so you choose to leave it unanswered. If you say "yes" then you have to be a dev. If you say "no" then you are just like us in that you actually know nothing about the game and how it works, and your theories can be right or wrong.

Regardless, you should have answered his question instead of babbling on about stuff that we already know. anyone could have just posted a link to numerous FAQs already made on this subject. Me, I am to lazy to do that, as I have posted numerous times.

[TimYoung]

I agree with what you have said based on no one really knows unless he is a dev of Nord. But similarly, you are claiming there are too many troll results and blaming ‘troll engine’ when it could just be factors in the engine that you dont know about. A point of playing this game...well at least for me is to test things out to find out these what kinda factors affect what.

I got a feeling that you tested a lot of things out, cant see a pattern and blame it on troll engine. Instead of just giving up why not try to see if you can find the patterns? lsnt that part of enjoyment of the game? Maybe you are right. Maybe not. Unless your the dev and can say you are completely right, I dont see why you should shoot down people who are trying to speculate how the engine works and tell anyone who would listen that there is no point since it is all random.

[cracicot]

I agree with what you have said based on no one really knows unless he is a dev of Nord. But similarly, you are claiming there are too many troll results and blaming ‘troll engine’ when it could just be factors in the engine that you dont know about. A point of playing this game...well at least for me is to test things out to find out these what kinda factors affect what.

I got a feeling that you tested a lot of things out, cant see a pattern and blame it on troll engine. Instead of just giving up why not try to see if you can find the patterns? lsnt that part of enjoyment of the game? Maybe you are right. Maybe not. Unless your the dev and can say you are completely right, I dont see why you should shoot down people who are trying to speculate how the engine works and tell anyone who would listen that there is no point since it is all random.

I am not saying it is random at all, but there is a sense of randomness to it at times.

I am not shooting hatemenow down for speculation, I am pointing out that he knows as much about the game as we do so he should not address others with the attitude that he knows how it works.

I dont profess to know everything about the game but I do look at patterns and results, contrary to your belief. I, along with many other experienced managers on this forum, know that there are serious issues withe the NGE, unexplainable ones.

[HateMeNow]

I never once addressed myself like a "knowall" nor any else like a "know****". All i did was trying to answer the OP explaining that anything you do doesnt effect player's stats. It's not like equipping excalibur to your warrior player in a mmorpg. As much as you can only speculate it'a totally obvious that a manager game CANT have an IA running like a MMORPG's one. And that's all i dictated as "wrong" so far.

As for what i wrote, as i already statd it isnt obviously a 100% sure ista kill but again i believe it's 60% accurate. My proof is that after facing SEVERAL same quality or HIGER q teams i alwais either squashed the first ones and won over the second one by sometimes higher margins. If t was one season or two i'd agree with you, but when for 8 conseutive seasons i manage to walk ito the CUP semifinals killing on my way 15-20q stronger and active team than for me it is a proof enough that not everything BUT a good part of what i believe actually works.

On the other side, i could vey well state that all you state is utter bull**** since you dont have proof to support it. But unlike you, i do believe and support other's opinions too ie the inexcusable engine trolls that come over the season. The only difference is that i do not not i will ever BLAME EVERY SINGLE asshair in this game to Nordeus devs. That is too cheap and in the end, keeps you from both having fun and winning something. In the end.

I admit many times i get troll results from the engine vs lower Q teams, but so far not once in fair matches or vs stronger teams i have been given a wrong result.

If you got more trolled than me, then you could start by trying to notice it. You talk alot and blame a lot (and sometimes rightfully) but not once i read from you any example coming from your experience. Copy/pasting others experience wont cut the ****, since simply you can just see what happened without having a true and whole situation to be observed. Should i copy/paste all the victories repprted here over same or stronger teams, it'd be a 50/50 situation. Pointless.