Comparing players: grey skills vs white skills

[LarryC]

Hi all,

If two players have more or less the same levels on white skills, do you think the player with higher grey skills is better?

When I'm looking for players on the TM, I often compare players on auction with my own of the same role.
Very often I find that even though the auctioned player has higher quality %, his white skills are more or less at the same level as those of my own player. The difference lies in the grey skills only.
Then I'm tempted to think that this player will not bring much compared to the one I already have.
What do you think?

I refer to this useful post by Toxcatl.

2. Skills are more important. The Quality (stars) are just average value of skills (both useful and useless). You have to decide what skills are important, and choose based on this. Maybe your defender needs not only Defensive skills? Maybe your Striker needs Speed? I don't know, you decide.
Stars are like average temperature of a group of people, you can't tell from it who's actually sick and need healing.
And yeah, Rating matters above all. It's just a low-quality player can perform better than HQ player in easy games, but fails in difficult ones.

[nikolgiorgos]

that skills are cosmetic ?

[Toxcatl]

that skills are cosmetic ?

You don't know that. Me neither, but I think you're wrong. I seriously need to gather all the facts about it and make a thread with arguments for and against. Just for, you know, settling this in my head.
Ah, I hate being agnostic, though sometimes, like in this case, there is no other choice.

When I'm looking for players on the TM, I often compare players on auction with my own of the same role.
Very often I find that even though the auctioned player has higher quality %, his white skills are more or less at the same level as those of my own player. The difference lies in the grey skills only.

You need to consider other factors that affect training pace: age, stars and, ideally, talent. The last one is a bitch though. Read Nik's guide about FTs to get more info, if you haven't already.

[LarryC]

Thanks, I think I read pretty much all the great stuff you both have written. That was immensely helpful.

My question is not about training pace, but rather:

Would the overall rating of a player be somehow misleading?
What If grey skills enter in the average % (and in star calculation) but are in fact of much lesser importance in the game itself.

That resonates with other reports of players with imbalanced skills
I suspect this 4* player plays probably as well as another 5* or 6* player having more balanced skills.


This relates indeed closely to another discussion: do individual skill matter or not? I think they probably do, but not as some think.

A player with 500% speed does not run five time as fast as one with 100%, as some dismissed

I think the game engine uses these attributes when calculating the chances of a particular event in the game.
E.g. shooting skill (and others?) of a ST against one or more of the keeper’s skill, to determine if the shot gets in (distance and position must also matter in this example).

[Toxcatl]

You are asking the right questions no one knows answers for. But the main question is

do individual skill matter or not?

There're two main opinions:
- skills don't matter, only average in each category (attack, defence, phys & mental);
- every skill matters.

Nik is from the first group, I am from the second.

My argument. The system is elaborated and clever: all these key and non-key abilities with tricky experience distribution, and stuff. It has some weak points (for example, you can't train Crossing to ML/R without training a grey skill), but in general it is pretty well balanced. I don't see why Nordeus would create such a detailed system of skills, drills and positions, and don't use it. It is like "build a house, live in a tent in the yard".

I've been thinking how to prove one point of view or another, and maybe I have an idea. We need to take two players from the same or symmetrical position (for instance, DC and DC or AML and AMR) with the same age, same Quality, same average value in Physical & Mental, but their Fitness should be very different, the more the difference, the better. Ideally one of them should have Fitness significantly less than 100%, while the other -- significantly more. We just have to compare their average Condition Loss from 8-10 games. If they have the same CL, that would mean Nik is right, and only the average value matters or Fitness doesn't affect Condition Loss (what it affects then?). If the player with higher Fitness has less CL, that would mean individual skills matter... Well, at least Fitness does =]
I'm going to try to test this. What do you think?

But if Nik is right, I'm going to feel like I was fuuu~d in the ass by Nordeus, and I probably will stop playing. This would be totally unfair: to give us such a beautiful, but completely useless toy. If the skills doesn't work individually, then devs are cheaters, and that house is made from papier mâché.

I think the game engine uses these attributes when calculating the chances of a particular event in the game.
E.g. shooting skill (and others?) of a ST against one or more of the keeper’s skill, to determine if the shot gets in (distance and position must also matter in this example).

I think exactly the same.
And I also think that there's a cap for every skill difference, so 500% Speed wouldn't run 5 times faster than 100%, because the difference cap is, let's say, 50%. So the difference coudn't be more than that.

Sorry for the wall of text.

P.S. Do you believe Jeeves?

He barely ever loses his matches mind you! But the guy is like a damn encyclopedia about football strategy, history, all that good stuff. (The only folks that are just as enthralled by the sport are the actual devs.

(bold highlighting is made by me)

I do =]

[nikolgiorgos]

Nik is from the first group, I am from the second.

Flea circus (with fleas or not) is a reality.
it gives about 300 thousands in google search, there is a wiki article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flea_circus ) and some people made money from that

@LarryC sorry that i haven't been so analytic but it something that comes every 3-4 weeks in the forum so it's boring repeat the same thing.
You can check this thread
https://forum.topeleven.com/top-elev...osition-2.html
and my post #13

@ Toxcatl

But if Nik is right, I'm going to feel like I was fuuu~d in the ass by Nordeus, and I probably will stop playing.

well, I don't understand why you 're so austere with that.
it's a ftp fb app, that's all.
I love playing T11 but why I would demand from that to be perfect while I 'm not.

[Cloverfield]

So this player should be a medium player in shooting?



85% of his goals come from very long shots.

just saying..

And because I mostly train my wingers with same drills, they all have low shooting but they all score from long range.
Many players.
Many seasons.

Till now no single proof that individual skills matter.

It is a strategy game. It is not football simulator.
So.., many things are cosmetic and we have to deal with it.

[k1tb]

So this player should be a medium player in shooting?



85% of his goals come from very long shots.

just saying..

And because I mostly train my wingers with same drills, they all have low shooting but they all score from long range.
Many players.
Many seasons.

Till now no single proof that individual skills matter.

It is a strategy game. It is not football simulator.
So.., many things are cosmetic and we have to deal with it.

Can you show, what drills you use ?

[Cloverfield]

Can you show, what drills you use ?

For power training strikers and wingers, I only use fast counter attacks.
Rest skills of these players are raised either by the team trainings for bonus, or the gain from each match.

[Toxcatl]

well, I don't understand why you 're so austere with that.
it's a ftp fb app, that's all.
I love playing T11 but why I would demand from that to be perfect while I 'm not.

I'm not asking it to be perfect, I'm asking it to be honest.
I am, as you said, austere because I would feel cheated. I spent a lot of time reading guides about how the skill training works, making ITP and creating training schedules. If individual skills are mere a cosmetic feature, all of that was for nothing, and Nordeus have deliberately lied to me, to all of us. If they can do that, nothing in this game matters. Everything could be a lie disguised as "game mechanics". Illusion of something that actually works. I don't need such a game.
I play video games since middle 80s, almost all my life, and I take them seriously =]