Formation and Goals

[khris]

And thats why the counters does not exist. I opened a thread explaining where's tha fantasy of the formations in top eleven and why these have no weight in the simulation.... as mentioned, the game do not "understand" what is a formation like you and me or any other manager.

I should translate the thesis I did in the spanish forum...

[PleaseHearMeNordeus]

I love these sorts of games and in particular football manager ones (cant wait for 2019), Im not having a go at top11 , it’s a fantastic mobile version. Sure there are certain areas that need improvingand people will always find a way to exploit things, it’s great fun nonetheless . If anything I’m curious to understand the in game mechanics etc we ( as managers love to tinker around with the squad, positions, formations and tactics

[VFK]

And thats why the counters does not exist. I opened a thread explaining where's tha fantasy of the formations in top eleven and why these have no weight in the simulation.... as mentioned, the game do not "understand" what is a formation like you and me or any other manager.

Never got into that counter formations stuff either, but saying that formations don't matter in the simulation is an interesting claim, not that I mean to deny it. Formation consists of players in their positions, and positions clearly matter for individual players and affect on what they are doing on the pitch.

Let's assume I had a formation with 2xDC, 3xMC, 3xST, and DL/ML/AML & DR/MR/AMR that I could use in any of their positions. Let's also assume that their every skill, white or gray would be the same, like everything 100%, so they would be equally capable at playing in all of those and would have the same impact in simulation.

Would it be completely the same whether I used 4-3-3 or 2-3-2-3? Now those two individual players would be more involved in defence if I used the previous, and more in offence and score more goals, should I use the latter. So we would have different players doing different things, but would the odds on what's going to happen (goals for me, goals against me, possession, cards, set pieces etc.) stay the same?

E: Modified this a bit to make my point clearer

[khris]

Never got into that counter formations stuff either, but saying that formations don't matter in the simulation is an interesting claim, not that I mean to deny it. Formation consists of players in their positions, and positions clearly matter for individual players and affect on what they are doing on the pitch.

Let's assume I had a formation with 2xDC, 3xMC, 3xST, and DL/ML/AML & DR/MR/AMR that I could use in any of their positions. Let's also assume that their every skill, white or gray would be the same, like everything 100%, so they would be equally capable at playing in all of those and would have the same impact in simulation.

Would it be completely the same whether I used 4-3-3 or 2-3-2-3? Now those two individual players would be more involved in defence if I used the previous, and more in offence and score more goals, should I use the latter. So we would have different players doing different things, but would the odds on what's going to happen (goals for me, goals against me, possession, cards, set pieces etc.) stay the same?

E: Modified this a bit to make my point clearer

Let's also assume that their every skill, white or gray would be the same, like everything 100%, so they would be equally capable at playing in all of those and would have the same impact in simulation.


"white or gray would be the same - so they would be equally capable at playing"

Here there's a big mistake of perception of what is "equally capable" because you hidde the internal programming of each player, as I always write as example, and as you suppose, 2 exact STs, same age same all, one scores 40 goals with 5* but the 2nd with 8* scores only 3.
So, nope, the behavior of the players is not relative to what you see as a obvious visual quality, or whatever you see. What you see is a pure illusion.

No, the game don't works with formations, exactly, works with scenarios, chosing different factors that matter in each match, doing a simplification of the team in each match, reducing the number of players -and this was visible before the live animations where introduced- and making some of them protagonists, some having a bad day, some are maybe more aggressive, one league match the morale of your players will be determinant and maybe tomorrow will not matter if you play with 0% condition.. today the contribution comes from players X, Y Z and tomorrow, X, A, B which creates a different scenario, and yes, in this case specific orders for that pre-selected ingame chosen scenario that matter,

Once you know the scenario, you can affect it in terms of orders, as the ddeterminant players have been chosen when the match starts, never before.

No, Ive said that loads of times, and I'll never be tired to repeat it. Chose X or Y formation when a match starts, give exactly the same options for the own game behavior, that simplify, assign random roles of contribution -but limited, as you can never have 11 players who score 40 goals each- and creates a "limited number of variables with what you have, whatever the formation is".

That's why I concluded that,
The "weight of the specific players positiion in the simulation, is equal to 0". The penalizations, for yellow or red trianggles (1% or 2% possession penalizations) to attend, so +8% and the fact that if you attend the game "choses one scenario that often wants you to interact, so less stable than if you dont attend, the condition, training bonuses, win bonuses, this have a impact in a scenario chosen in relation with the differance of the main AvQ of both teams, and it is the same, 3-5* or 7 to 9* diff, these are ranks of margin.

I guess I'll have to translate my thesis lol

[VFK]

[B]
"white or gray would be the same - so they would be equally capable at playing"

Here there's a big mistake of perception of what is "equally capable" because you hidde the internal programming of each player, as I always write as example, and as you suppose, 2 exact STs, same age same all, one scores 40 goals with 5* but the 2nd with 8* scores only 3.
So, nope, the behavior of the players is not relative to what you see as a obvious visual quality, or whatever you see. What you see is a pure illusion.

My point was to create a ceteris paribus scenario with all things remaining equal other than positions of two players. Every game is different, I know, but I'm talking about probabilities. Can a player be programmed so that he would be more efficient in one of his positions than in another? If his visible skills would make him equally suitable for DR, MR and AMR (cue the every skill 100% example), could he be programmed to be more useful as AMR than as DR and MR? If yes, formation does matter indirectly.

Your rationale for the match engine is really good, but I feel like this part is an exaggeration:

"2 exact STs, same age same all, one scores 40 goals with 5* but the 2nd with 8* scores only 3.
So, nope, the behavior of the players is not relative to what you see as a obvious visual quality, or whatever you see. What you see is a pure illusion."

My experience is pretty anecdotal, but I play with mostly the same guys every season in the top of server. The teams in the league are 6/7, sometimes the best are 8, and I'm yet to see an efficient 5 star player in this level, they're all garbage. I've seen a lot of continuously underperforming high quality players and had some of those myself, so I don't deny the internal programming thing outright.

However, the players with the best key skills and teams with players as such are constantly doing the best regardless. Even the best teams tend to just buy players they find useful, train them into quality players without experimenting much beyond the surface on hidden factors and all that, and succeed with them nonetheless. So player's visual quality and real efficiency obviously has a high correlation.

[khris]

but I feel like this part is an exaggeration:

"2 exact STs, same age same all, one scores 40 goals with 5* but the 2nd with 8* scores only 3.
So, nope, the behavior of the players is not relative to what you see as a obvious visual quality, or whatever you see. What you see is a pure illusion."

But thats a old personal experience that I've been sharing here since... 4 years ago¿?... when I bought a scout that I called Djibril Cissé, trained till 8* and scored just 3 goals xD so is not a exaggeration, is a real -sad- experience documented in it's moment lol


Is a matter of values assignation and calibrations of each team, and the game will create a specific scenario with what you have. You have 11 areas +gk where to put 11 players, if a specific player works as AMR/L as is often the case the "formation form" can be any with a aml-r, and if you play a team based in a 4-3-3 the game will create a scenario with particular roles, and will give protagonism to 1-2 players equally, so, when I say formation don't matter, I'm saying too that the game willl chose a scenario with options for you to play with what you have.

Then, yes, Ive defended this part too, in where I mention that is important to have a AvQ of the 11 better than the oppo, because first of all, the chances and win margin will stay in your favour, and then, the scenario and "simplification of contribution roles" toowill be in your favour, but remember, this simplification, that exists, has shown that:
-Your avQ can consist in players of for example, 1* x4 and 8* x7, and if the game chose as protagonists part of the 1*'s you can have a high avQ of +30 than the oppo, but due this technicism of simplification you can lose, and I think we see this here almost daily lol
And it doesn't matter the +30% avq or the formation in a case like this.

So this case, of teams with 1* and 8*'s show this variation in the scenario selection and show how the game don't work "facing" formations, but it uses another type of info that is not so "obvious".

And really, if we analyze the idea of a game facing formations, would be really crazy, and thats why the game allow your team to lose vs 2*'s without give you an option, because it don't faces formations, it choses particular scenarios and discard options.
Based always in the diff' of avq between both teams? yes. But more based in the AvQ and cinternal contribution roles that we don't see? of course, and I'll go more far away and say that probably when a season starts every team have a "path" y default, playing 5 years you can see so common how a team often loses vs a middle table team without xpect... so? "predetermined"? yes. Season path and match scenarios predetermined.