Formation and Goals

[PleaseHearMeNordeus]

The more I play this game the more I begin to think formation doesn’t mean squat, a lot of times during highlights I see my players completely out of position. When in a defensive highlight, I can see my players position and it’s a complete mess, literally they are just all over the place, like 8 players towards the midfield area and my wingers on defence , plus maybe one CD. Same happens when attacking, my wingers on wrong sides, striker in midfield, defenders as striker etc. My favourite though is sometimes during set pieces when defending we have one big line which doesn’t move. Or maybe during attacking set pieces when there’s like one person in the box.. so this comes to my next point of goals, which have become so predictable since the highlights for them are the same every time. My favourite is when somebody shoots from like half way, the keeper saves and the ball bounces back to the same player, then he shoots again and scores Surely formations matter ? Unless you lineup to lose, but otherwise, it just feels that formations don’t matter as much , takes the strategy bit out of the equation as for the goals, I just want to see a bit more... unpredictability ?

[khris]

And thats why the counters does not exist. I opened a thread explaining where's tha fantasy of the formations in top eleven and why these have no weight in the simulation.... as mentioned, the game do not "understand" what is a formation like you and me or any other manager.

I should translate the thesis I did in the spanish forum...

[PleaseHearMeNordeus]

I love these sorts of games and in particular football manager ones (cant wait for 2019), Im not having a go at top11 , it’s a fantastic mobile version. Sure there are certain areas that need improvingand people will always find a way to exploit things, it’s great fun nonetheless . If anything I’m curious to understand the in game mechanics etc we ( as managers love to tinker around with the squad, positions, formations and tactics

[nikolgiorgos]

The last years the game became more managerial than coaching.
Focus on that

[VFK]

And thats why the counters does not exist. I opened a thread explaining where's tha fantasy of the formations in top eleven and why these have no weight in the simulation.... as mentioned, the game do not "understand" what is a formation like you and me or any other manager.

Never got into that counter formations stuff either, but saying that formations don't matter in the simulation is an interesting claim, not that I mean to deny it. Formation consists of players in their positions, and positions clearly matter for individual players and affect on what they are doing on the pitch.

Let's assume I had a formation with 2xDC, 3xMC, 3xST, and DL/ML/AML & DR/MR/AMR that I could use in any of their positions. Let's also assume that their every skill, white or gray would be the same, like everything 100%, so they would be equally capable at playing in all of those and would have the same impact in simulation.

Would it be completely the same whether I used 4-3-3 or 2-3-2-3? Now those two individual players would be more involved in defence if I used the previous, and more in offence and score more goals, should I use the latter. So we would have different players doing different things, but would the odds on what's going to happen (goals for me, goals against me, possession, cards, set pieces etc.) stay the same?

E: Modified this a bit to make my point clearer

[PleaseHearMeNordeus]

I just notice that during highlights all of my players are completely out of position, especially what annoys me is when they all bunch up in the middle. I’ve messed around so much with the formations and honestly I don’t see much of a difference, unless you setup to lose, then it pretty much plays out like every other formation. I keep thinking to myself that midfield is the most important area of the pitch, where attacks break up and chances created, but having 2-3 midfielders doesn’t really matter, some teams have one midfielder and play fine completely. You’d have to think they would get outplayed in the middle , but no also I’ve noticed teams play absolutely fine with 1CD at the back. During highlights I would see one defender out of position, yet the team performs more or less ok. By which I mean if you have a decent setup, with decent players , then the rest will take Care of itself.

[khris]

Never got into that counter formations stuff either, but saying that formations don't matter in the simulation is an interesting claim, not that I mean to deny it. Formation consists of players in their positions, and positions clearly matter for individual players and affect on what they are doing on the pitch.

Let's assume I had a formation with 2xDC, 3xMC, 3xST, and DL/ML/AML & DR/MR/AMR that I could use in any of their positions. Let's also assume that their every skill, white or gray would be the same, like everything 100%, so they would be equally capable at playing in all of those and would have the same impact in simulation.

Would it be completely the same whether I used 4-3-3 or 2-3-2-3? Now those two individual players would be more involved in defence if I used the previous, and more in offence and score more goals, should I use the latter. So we would have different players doing different things, but would the odds on what's going to happen (goals for me, goals against me, possession, cards, set pieces etc.) stay the same?

E: Modified this a bit to make my point clearer

Let's also assume that their every skill, white or gray would be the same, like everything 100%, so they would be equally capable at playing in all of those and would have the same impact in simulation.


"white or gray would be the same - so they would be equally capable at playing"

Here there's a big mistake of perception of what is "equally capable" because you hidde the internal programming of each player, as I always write as example, and as you suppose, 2 exact STs, same age same all, one scores 40 goals with 5* but the 2nd with 8* scores only 3.
So, nope, the behavior of the players is not relative to what you see as a obvious visual quality, or whatever you see. What you see is a pure illusion.

No, the game don't works with formations, exactly, works with scenarios, chosing different factors that matter in each match, doing a simplification of the team in each match, reducing the number of players -and this was visible before the live animations where introduced- and making some of them protagonists, some having a bad day, some are maybe more aggressive, one league match the morale of your players will be determinant and maybe tomorrow will not matter if you play with 0% condition.. today the contribution comes from players X, Y Z and tomorrow, X, A, B which creates a different scenario, and yes, in this case specific orders for that pre-selected ingame chosen scenario that matter,

Once you know the scenario, you can affect it in terms of orders, as the ddeterminant players have been chosen when the match starts, never before.

No, Ive said that loads of times, and I'll never be tired to repeat it. Chose X or Y formation when a match starts, give exactly the same options for the own game behavior, that simplify, assign random roles of contribution -but limited, as you can never have 11 players who score 40 goals each- and creates a "limited number of variables with what you have, whatever the formation is".

That's why I concluded that,
The "weight of the specific players positiion in the simulation, is equal to 0". The penalizations, for yellow or red trianggles (1% or 2% possession penalizations) to attend, so +8% and the fact that if you attend the game "choses one scenario that often wants you to interact, so less stable than if you dont attend, the condition, training bonuses, win bonuses, this have a impact in a scenario chosen in relation with the differance of the main AvQ of both teams, and it is the same, 3-5* or 7 to 9* diff, these are ranks of margin.

I guess I'll have to translate my thesis lol

[VFK]

[B]
"white or gray would be the same - so they would be equally capable at playing"

Here there's a big mistake of perception of what is "equally capable" because you hidde the internal programming of each player, as I always write as example, and as you suppose, 2 exact STs, same age same all, one scores 40 goals with 5* but the 2nd with 8* scores only 3.
So, nope, the behavior of the players is not relative to what you see as a obvious visual quality, or whatever you see. What you see is a pure illusion.

My point was to create a ceteris paribus scenario with all things remaining equal other than positions of two players. Every game is different, I know, but I'm talking about probabilities. Can a player be programmed so that he would be more efficient in one of his positions than in another? If his visible skills would make him equally suitable for DR, MR and AMR (cue the every skill 100% example), could he be programmed to be more useful as AMR than as DR and MR? If yes, formation does matter indirectly.

Your rationale for the match engine is really good, but I feel like this part is an exaggeration:

"2 exact STs, same age same all, one scores 40 goals with 5* but the 2nd with 8* scores only 3.
So, nope, the behavior of the players is not relative to what you see as a obvious visual quality, or whatever you see. What you see is a pure illusion."

My experience is pretty anecdotal, but I play with mostly the same guys every season in the top of server. The teams in the league are 6/7, sometimes the best are 8, and I'm yet to see an efficient 5 star player in this level, they're all garbage. I've seen a lot of continuously underperforming high quality players and had some of those myself, so I don't deny the internal programming thing outright.

However, the players with the best key skills and teams with players as such are constantly doing the best regardless. Even the best teams tend to just buy players they find useful, train them into quality players without experimenting much beyond the surface on hidden factors and all that, and succeed with them nonetheless. So player's visual quality and real efficiency obviously has a high correlation.

[nikolgiorgos]

I guess I'll have to translate my thesis lol

I 'm waiting for that @Khris, as I 'll put there my thesis too

[Mitja fc]

Last match I played versus worse team...cuz my DMC had red card I decided to play 4d-2m-2amw-2s with long pases thru flanks and I was loosing 0:1 at half time so I changed to 4d-3m-2amw-1s with short pases and I ended up winning 5:1...also my possesion went from around 50% to 80%...
So I guess formation does matter...