Learning a new position

[Bliketa]

With the new training system each position has some particular abilities to train (the ones which are highlighted) , so when you learn a new position to your player, he will have some others skills to train. Often he won't be good in these new skills so I have listed the skills you gain when you learn a new position in order to see the difficulty of learning every position.
I don't know if I'm clear but here the list :

DL/DR --> DML/DMR : Passing + Strenght
DL/DR --> DC : Heading + Strenght

DC --> DL/DR : Crossing + Speed
DC --> DMC : Passing + Creativity

DML/DMR --> DL/DR : Speed + Fitness
DML/DMR --> DMC : Heading + Fitness + Creativity
DML/DMR --> ML/MR : Dribbling + Speed + Creativity

DMC --> DC : Nothing
DMC --> DML/DMR : Crossing
DMC --> MC : Dribbling + Shooting + Speed

ML/MR --> DML/DMR : Tackling + Marking + Bravery + Aggression
ML/MR --> MC : Tackling + Marking + Bravery + Shooting
ML/MR --> AML/AMR : Shooting + Finishing

MC --> DMC : Heading + Strenght + Aggression
MC --> ML/MR : Crossing
MC --> AMC : Heading + Finishing

AML/AMR --> ML/MR : Positioning
AML/AMR --> AMC : Heading
AML/AMR --> ST : Heading + Positioning

AMC --> MC : Tackling + Marking + Positioning + Bravery
AMC --> AML/AMR : Crossing
AMC --> ST : Positioning

ST --> AML/AMR : Crossing
ST --> AMC : Nothing

So we can see that some learning are more fit than other (ST --> AMC, DMC --> DC where your player won't have a new skill to train) and learning in a way is less difficult than the other ( for example learning your MR to be a MC will be more difficult than learning your MC to be a MR)
I could also continue with combinaison of position but I know that learning a position isn't really use because of its cost so I will wait until answers

[nikolgiorgos]

Here is another recent thread with the same subject.
http://forum.topeleven.com/top-eleve...ck-skills.html

but to be honest, it didn't make me wiser as yours too.
I mean, what is the difference in a highlighted skill with a non h. in a training ?
What 'll be if you put a DC in a training with the the drill "Sprint" (hard) which has speed and with the drill "Press the play" (also hard) which has tackling.
Will be there a difference in gaining ? How much ?

( for example learning your MR to be a MC will be more difficult than learning your MC to be a MR)

I don't understand that.
Learning a new position just needs 50 skill points.

[Bliketa]

Sorry for my bad english :
First a highlighted skill is a skill your player need, as for every position you don't have the same skills to train, I don't think he will have a bonus of training on these skills but I believe he will gain point in those skills after match.

And of course learning position is always 50 skills points but I meant to say that it will be more difficult to be a good player because of having more new skills to work on : for example if your player is a MR that have learned to be a MC he will now have four more skill highlight, so he will have to work on four more skills than before and generally he wasn't good in it

For example : This player of mine has recently be able to play DMC ( he was MC) :

As you can see, his lowest highlight skill are strengh (force), heading (tête) and aggression (aggressivité) , because he was MC and learn to be a DMC

By writing this topic, I tried to show that every learning position does not worth the same as they don't bring the same numbers of highlighted skill which can be lack

[nikolgiorgos]

I don't think he will have a bonus of training on these skills but I believe he will gain point in those skills after match.

ok, that's a point.

I meant to say that it will be more difficult to be a good player because of having more new skills to work on : for example if your player is a MR that have learned to be a MC he will now have four more skill highlight, so he will have to work on four more skills than before and generally he wasn't good in it

well, as I was saying in another conversation here with Al, I don't believe that individual skills and their development making our players better in specific actions in the game.
http://forum.topeleven.com/tutorials...g-bonuses.html
I believe more in internal program/ hidden talent of a player.
For example here is a player I bought this season and did a power-training. Also add the MC position.
He has a talent at scoring even if his skills for this (shooting, Finishing) are the lowest of all (together with Speed, which also is useful or scoring).



* But if a player with more highlighted skills could gain faster than another with less, that would interest me

[Bliketa]

About your example, I think we can explain the fact that even if shooting is his lowest skill, it's still pretty good compared to so I think your player is too good to see the clout of skills.
We should consider a player specialized in offence or defence, however it may be difficult to evaluate skills' impact as we do not see our player everytime during a game so maybe you're right.


And about the highlighted skill, I think they gain faster :

My player who have been four or five years with me
As you can see the highlighted skills is higher than the others :
For the defensive skills, it is because I mostly train him for offence
But the "agressivité" is very low and I assure you that I always begin a drill with warm-up which gives aggression
So it may gain faster

[Al Svanberg]

Great stuff!

Niko, I just don't get why Nordeus would have abilities if they didn't matter at all? If they used "hidden abilities" instead? Sure I can imagine that a lot is simplified and what not to cut server use if nothing else, but I just don't see the reason for Nordeus to give the players "cosmetic" abilities like you put it that does not matter at all and instead use hidden abilities for the game. Like, why use two set of abiliies, one for cosmetic reasons to fool us and one for the real game? Not saying that you are wrong, you must have a feel for this as an experienced player that I don't have. But just saying that I don't understand the logic behind it.

Also, as regard the highlighted abilities. Somewhere from Nordeus info I read that player's highlighted abilities are easier to improve, my impression is definitely that they gain faster in these areas both in training and from games. Like a AMC does not seem to gain in positioning nearly as fast as a striker does. A DC does not seem to pick up nearly as fast in creativity as a MC does. All this of course using the new system. I am a bit too fresh to take the for of the gas and do some serious testing, but I am fairly certain of this. Like any player that you power train just takes off in the highlighted abilities. Or is it just me? I've specifically noticed that it's hard to learn your DCs creativity and AMCs positioning....

[nikolgiorgos]

Suppose you want to provoke a dev to come here and give some answers
No, they won't, they never gave straight answers.
They presented the new training system but never said "ok, now that you can train your players with individuals drills for specific abilities, you can take a player as "tabula rasa" and make a MC specialist in crossings, a DL superb in F-K like Roberto Carlos, a winger with high speed and dribbling performing like Roben.
It's a brand new system, looks cool and interesting but the only thing that seems to add in team's performing are those 4 additional bonus.

I just don't see the reason for Nordeus to give the players "cosmetic" abilities like you put it that does not matter at all and instead use hidden abilities for the game

I believe that the game's mechanics about the match calculation didn't change, so as the old version, in the new version too, there isn't a specific calculation that counts every single ability for every action every time. To be fair, the demands would be huge for doing that for every single game, for every single player of the team.
So it's a production of game players by RNG. The true skills of a player are different from the skills we can see.
for example, let's say we have 3 new MC. One of them has a higher crossing skill so we choose him for corners.
After some tests and observation, we realize that this player hasn't the talent for that and if we use another or maybe a DC (), we can have better results.

Some managers set their GK for the F-K with great success.
I still believe in higher quality (meaning an attacker with 55 q wins a defender with 51 q) and I 'm still wondering about the three main categories (attack, defense, M&P). I mean if has a meaning to give more attack points to ST and more defense points to a DC.
Give you another example about that, I have a defender, young one, fast trainer, 19 y.o. 6* from previous season and all the sp he earned in the season, went in defense and M&P (or a ST with all the earning points to attacking skills). Then this season I 'm buying a nordgen DC/ST or a player from scout list. And they perform better than my old players who had very high those relative skills.
I 'm using this example because nordgen and scouts as "newborn" players, have their skills almost equal in every category.

* Just to make one thing clear, I 'm not accusing the game, I love to play it, considering myself a hardcore player, I think it's great and the best for this kind (fb football manager game), I like to help others to play better but also to understand how it works and not have the illusion that they're playing something else.

[nikolgiorgos]

Another example. Interesting, isn't it ?
http://forum.topeleven.com/top-eleve...t-rb-ever.html

[Bliketa]

Hmm maybe I can explain that he scores a lot because he is a very good player such as yours (more than 6*) so he will be better than the average player in your league meaning he could score easily

[Al Svanberg]

Great stuff in this thread!

I will come back with some comments later on. But I want to point out that there also are many variables in the game, that obviously has a big impact. For example, this season I picked up a 18 y/o 99% striker 5.30 AM on Day 1 of the season (Niko its your fault I didn't get any sleep that Sunday morning ). Anyway, I have powertrained him real hard and he develops fast. But, in his first 13 games as the sole striker on one of my accounts, he had only ONE goal. My team has been very dominant and my AMC has 21 goals in 13 games, while my sole striker has 1. I have been thinking, what is this? Is this one of those players who will be cold a full season like many talk about at these forums etc.

But then I got a really tough draw in an association game (my opponent had at least 10 per cent on me). My team for once didn't finish a game with possession stats around 80-75, and love and behold my wonder-kid striker scored a hat-trick. And while it is hard to evaluate, this also mirrors what I see when I watch the games. When I have the ball and have pushed back the other team really deep, my striker is often surrounded by several defenders while my mid-fielders and wing-backs get a lot of open space. When my striker gets the ball, he often just passes it back again. But when I faced a much better team that pushed me back, he got all kind of room on the counter attack and could dominate.