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Originally Posted by EastsiderSG

With regards to mismanagement, many of us in some way are guilty of it. Like i mentioned, when someone calls himself a crap manager and displays his record, is he fishing for a compliment? Can another forumer share his opinion if its negative or does it have to stroke his ego. I prefer records like yours to those of blok45 so i will let him know. He says things were more difficult in the past but i know alot of players who are high level and do alot better. These good record players all think players with Bad records are lazy. And players with bad records say players with good records are cheats. Many people speak up for both sides and there is no end to it.

Essentially what you said is correct. You have your stand and so do i. You responded defending blok and i responded defending minamino. Simply that. Both of us have our rights to do so. You think that tankers who win trophies ought to be criticised. I think the game needs to be criticised for allowing it. Perhaps you think there is no way the game will change so target the players? I think no way you can change players minds so better to tackle the problem at its roots.

I do not share minamino’s opinion as i think formation is cosmetic. Only formation. TACTICS are crucial. To me all the bs on formations is just noise that i ignore. I refuse to blame the players and say stuff just to benefit the game/developer. You are sounding more and more like an employee. The game needs to be fixed. I do not see why anyone shouldnt exploit these loopholes and lose out to players who do. If cheats, hacks and loopholes exist, the developer needs to fix it. Turning players against each other using mystery forumers isnt the best method.




Points to think about

In the top 100 players with trophies, how many players have english as a first language? I dont think i see any english speaking players. You are from HK, you should know that most mainlanders cheat as well. Ironically HK and China are one but the residents behave so different


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Yes, indeed. That’s why I very much respect your standpoint defending minamino while myself defending blok45 on this very topic, as we probably share similar views in most other issues.

When it comes to mismanagement, I surely had my horrible moment when I was so careless in forgetting to renew contracts of several players before end of last season, resulting in an extremely horrible draw in the Cup this season (122%, drawn with 148% plus no less than 10x teams of 115%-133%). Already managed 2 comeback draws of 1-1 & 2-2 in 2nd legs after comfortable 1st leg wins, with the 2-2 game with 23 shots and only 4 on target (typical troll game but managed to scrape through it). Expecting every Cup round to be a real fight, and the final will be either of 2 tankers (typical level 4 account which started back 18 & 9 seasons ago and stayed forever). Again it is a huge motivation for me to beat this type of abusing tankers to give them a lesson (that a not-too-bad manipulator could beat an abusing tanker). It will be some achievement if I could keep the unbeaten run going this season to beat a 25% better team.

Records alone is not a useful indicator of how good a manager is. Managers who play it tough with no manipulation or tanking whatsoever will not have a full trophy cabinet and a higher % of losses with the extremely competitive nature. Would be great if there is a stat indicator to show the average quality difference of opponents throughout seasons for us to appreciate and compare.

In terms of Nordeus, I never hold back in criticising them at all (at least a few times every season). An employee of theirs would not be so blunt in criticism and also so revealing about all the possible ways of getting the maximum benefits as freeloaders (I never pay money on this game and never will, because this game can be won fairly without any spending at all). They probably dislike me way more than other forumers as a freeloader should not be able to compete at such rate, which is really the counter-productive to their marketing on premiums and monthly add-ons. (How on earth a level-1 freeloader account can win top prize of KoK? Would they like that?)

With matches, for me, both formation and tactics are equally extremely important. Losing either completely will definitely lose us the match easily. Say if you play a 4-5v-1, and I play a 4-1-3-1AML-ST(skewed left) with equally same stat players, I can guarantee you the latter formation team will win 4/5 times easily, no matter what tactics the former team uses or changes. But when 2 formations are not perfect counter of each other, then the manager who has the better tactics would win. Maybe we could play some friendlies on end day of season to try this out (KoK was extremely boring, but it is a very useful battlefield to verify on perfect counter formations, providing that our team is versatile enough to change and try repeatedly - my team is set up in a way to play every single possible formation, except 3 STs [Yes, not exaggerating every]).

And about your last point about HK & China. Just to state facts and not trying to stir unnecessary conflicts or arguments from mainlanders. Not about who is ‘better’ or ‘worse’, but about the difference:

It all depends on a few things, such as if the person was born before 97, what kind of upbringing the person had, what kind of schools the person attended then, and then what kind of environment the person spends his/her life in.

Typically, the earlier from 97 a person was born, the higher likely the chance the person received education under British colonial rule, which tends to teach more about freedom than nationality; (because colonial rule purposefully conveys less nationalism with more freedom for easier rule then)
Upbringing depends on parents and family, and their values all stem from their own education and life; (not difficult to find out how it works with influx in 60 & 70s)
Schools’ choice like those typically started by Western clerics in 1900s, which often attracted the better talents back in the older days, could also convey more messages about choices and morality with a relatively high level acceptance of different values and development in talents other than just academics;
And then it was and still is popular with HK parents sending kids overseas for higher education, which may further broaden their mindset and adopt even more Western values (eg. Cheating is really wrong, so at least don’t do it even when you can stop others doing it [socially unacceptable] Vs Cheating is common in some aspects in China so join cheating will be easier than not doing it [an environment-forced decision])

Probably the above alone would infuriate a lot of mainlanders already and start claiming HK is now under China rule, etc. One has to understand a few current generations of some 6m+ population who had a very high tendency to accept and embrace different values in most corners of the world are more likely to live with their learned values and way of life gained through years of education and adult life, but not switching to a totally different kind of value, language and other ways of life with just a change of flag on the land.

That would explain the difference of why HK people are different, because they were brought up in a different environment living a different way of life. Again, not claiming better or worse, but just different. Very, very different.

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Originally Posted by HeavensAAA

Yes, indeed. That’s why I very much respect your standpoint defending minamino while myself defending blok45 on this very topic, as we probably share similar views in most other issues.

When it comes to mismanagement, I surely had my horrible moment when I was so careless in forgetting to renew contracts of several players before end of last season, resulting in an extremely horrible draw in the Cup this season (122%, drawn with 148% plus no less than 10x teams of 115%-133%). Already managed 2 comeback draws of 1-1 & 2-2 in 2nd legs after comfortable 1st leg wins, with the 2-2 game with 23 shots and only 4 on target (typical troll game but managed to scrape through it). Expecting every Cup round to be a real fight, and the final will be either of 2 tankers (typical level 4 account which started back 18 & 9 seasons ago and stayed forever). Again it is a huge motivation for me to beat this type of abusing tankers to give them a lesson (that a not-too-bad manipulator could beat an abusing tanker). It will be some achievement if I could keep the unbeaten run going this season to beat a 25% better team.

Records alone is not a useful indicator of how good a manager is. Managers who play it tough with no manipulation or tanking whatsoever will not have a full trophy cabinet and a higher % of losses with the extremely competitive nature. Would be great if there is a stat indicator to show the average quality difference of opponents throughout seasons for us to appreciate and compare.

In terms of Nordeus, I never hold back in criticising them at all (at least a few times every season). An employee of theirs would not be so blunt in criticism and also so revealing about all the possible ways of getting the maximum benefits as freeloaders (I never pay money on this game and never will, because this game can be won fairly without any spending at all). They probably dislike me way more than other forumers as a freeloader should not be able to compete at such rate, which is really the counter-productive to their marketing on premiums and monthly add-ons. (How on earth a level-1 freeloader account can win top prize of KoK? Would they like that?)

With matches, for me, both formation and tactics are equally extremely important. Losing either completely will definitely lose us the match easily. Say if you play a 4-5v-1, and I play a 4-1-3-1AML-ST(skewed left) with equally same stat players, I can guarantee you the latter formation team will win 4/5 times easily, no matter what tactics the former team uses or changes. But when 2 formations are not perfect counter of each other, then the manager who has the better tactics would win. Maybe we could play some friendlies on end day of season to try this out (KoK was extremely boring, but it is a very useful battlefield to verify on perfect counter formations, providing that our team is versatile enough to change and try repeatedly - my team is set up in a way to play every single possible formation, except 3 STs [Yes, not exaggerating every]).

And about your last point about HK & China. Just to state facts and not trying to stir unnecessary conflicts or arguments from mainlanders. Not about who is ‘better’ or ‘worse’, but about the difference:

It all depends on a few things, such as if the person was born before 97, what kind of upbringing the person had, what kind of schools the person attended then, and then what kind of environment the person spends his/her life in.

Typically, the earlier from 97 a person was born, the higher likely the chance the person received education under British colonial rule, which tends to teach more about freedom than nationality; (because colonial rule purposefully conveys less nationalism with more freedom for easier rule then)
Upbringing depends on parents and family, and their values all stem from their own education and life; (not difficult to find out how it works with influx in 60 & 70s)
Schools’ choice like those typically started by Western clerics in 1900s, which often attracted the better talents back in the older days, could also convey more messages about choices and morality with a relatively high level acceptance of different values and development in talents other than just academics;
And then it was and still is popular with HK parents sending kids overseas for higher education, which may further broaden their mindset and adopt even more Western values (eg. Cheating is really wrong, so at least don’t do it even when you can stop others doing it [socially unacceptable] Vs Cheating is common in some aspects in China so join cheating will be easier than not doing it [an environment-forced decision])

Probably the above alone would infuriate a lot of mainlanders already and start claiming HK is now under China rule, etc. One has to understand a few current generations of some 6m+ population who had a very high tendency to accept and embrace different values in most corners of the world are more likely to live with their learned values and way of life gained through years of education and adult life, but not switching to a totally different kind of value, language and other ways of life with just a change of flag on the land.

That would explain the difference of why HK people are different, because they were brought up in a different environment living a different way of life. Again, not claiming better or worse, but just different. Very, very different.

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While I do agree that records do not accurately identify a good manager. There is a clear distinction between a manager who puts in effort vs those who do not put in effort among non manipulators. I was once a non manipulator. Never did I have more losses than draws. And the win rate still remains high as I get knocked out over 2 matches or 1 in cup and CL. But usually win the league and would win almost all my matches prior to being knocked out. The players who show me records with so many losses and expect to be treated like they have alot of experience are misleading new players. They have definitely tanked prior or have been inactive for so long that their experience is no better than the low levels. But I can tell you for certain, a good trophy haul does show the manager is good at high levels. Everyone manipulates these days so it ain't a walk in the park for such managers as well.

Also we have to keep an open mind. If we have a few accounts, would you expect every account to play the same way? I don't know about you but I wouldn't. I would definitely have a tanking account that is aimed at destroying others records. I would find that fun if I had the time.

I agree on everything you said on HK vs the mainland. I have much more to add but this ain't the place and that's why I had that whole part removed from my post. Somehow u clicked reply before I was done editing. All I will mention is most of the cheating and scamming in my country originates from China and Africa.

Very good discussion here guys, but I just want to point out that managers in the game might have gone through different playing phases with the game. There can be times, where a player didn't take the game seriously or had long breaks from the game.

I am actually a perfect example, I play this game for almost 8 years now, started in April of 2013. However, the time when I was starting to enjoy the game, get a lot of knowledge on training and other things, and since then played it more seriously, was about 3 years ago in 2018.
When you take a look in my team showcase, there is a picture from my club history in Level 48, where I had 775 wins, 332 draws and 683 losses with only 12 league titles and 2 CL titles, which is actually horrible and for me would indicate an inactive player (which I probably was up to this point)... I remember when I was playing the game back then, buying expensive 5 star old players in auctions. The first round in cup would almost always be the end of my campaign then and I didn't know, that you could use rest packs for training players. :D

Today I am Level 84 and my club history is obviously still not the best, however my win % has improved significantly since then. Today I have 1400 wins more compared to my Level 48 stats, while only accumulating another 200 losses, which is actually decent in my opinion. If you only take the last year or so, the win % might even be a lot higher than this, because I had another 3 months break from the game in 2019.

I know some other people, who are like me. Who had this one moment, later in their "career", where they learned a lot about the game and thus improved a lot. Who today are very good managers and didn't want to start a new account just for better stats... So club record might be an indicator for how active someone is, but in higher levels especially, probably not the best. It's just a reflection of your past time. But what matters is the present, the current version of the opponent in front of you. And he might be a lot better than his records might tell. Or he might not be, because he is nowadays only playing the game casually and his greatest times, where he got the maximum enjoyment out of TE, might be in the past.

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Originally Posted by Der_Ryan_M

Very good discussion here guys, but I just want to point out that managers in the game might have gone through different playing phases with the game. There can be times, where a player didn't take the game seriously or had long breaks from the game.

I am actually a perfect example, I play this game for almost 8 years now, started in April of 2013. However, the time when I was starting to enjoy the game, get a lot of knowledge on training and other things, and since then played it more seriously, was about 3 years ago in 2018.
When you take a look in my team showcase, there is a picture from my club history in Level 48, where I had 775 wins, 332 draws and 683 losses with only 12 league titles and 2 CL titles, which is actually horrible and for me would indicate an inactive player (which I probably was up to this point)... I remember when I was playing the game back then, buying expensive 5 star old players in auctions. The first round in cup would almost always be the end of my campaign then and I didn't know, that you could use rest packs for training players. :D

Today I am Level 84 and my club history is obviously still not the best, however my win % has improved significantly since then. Today I have 1400 wins more compared to my Level 48 stats, while only accumulating another 200 losses, which is actually decent in my opinion. If you only take the last year or so, the win % might even be a lot higher than this, because I had another 3 months break from the game in 2019.

I know some other people, who are like me. Who had this one moment, later in their "career", where they learned a lot about the game and thus improved a lot. Who today are very good managers and didn't want to start a new account just for better stats... So club record might be an indicator for how active someone is, but in higher levels especially, probably not the best. It's just a reflection of your past time. But what matters is the present, the current version of the opponent in front of you. And he might be a lot better than his records might tell. Or he might not be, because he is nowadays only playing the game casually and his greatest times, where he got the maximum enjoyment out of TE, might be in the past.

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That's the problem. Too good a record,even non manipulators get falsely accused. Too bad a record and it shows inactivity. We can't even tell if the inactivity is someone who logs in once a month or someone who was away for an extended period as they didn't use to reset records until recently. Winning at the top of the server is definitely difficult but if you spend a few seasons storing resources like MNK and go all out for a few seasons, you would definitely have a good shot at some trophies. In the end, I have to say winning is not so much skill but activity and consistent effort. For myself, I had a pretty decent record when I did not manipulate. But it also doesn't mean I am skilled at tactics but just that I train my players well which is probably a requirement to be classified as a good manager as well.

Players are gonna get shamed no matter how they play whether it's tanking, manipulating or upselling. Yet by playing normally, you play with unfair draws. I dare say unfair draws cause as many players to quit as loopholes if not more. Many players say they love competition yet end up rage quitting like myself. And yes Der Ryan, I know many players have more interest in their lower level accounts. The competition at higher levels with +1+2 cup and cl opponents is really boring especially when the top level repeats a season. You can't get over the quality disadvantage as top level repeating the season is as good as tanking. They can only hope they get to the top asap to get pass that disadvantage.

I don’t think Nordeus needs to change anything nor do i think players need to change the way they play. Players want to have fun and be entertained by a game. I could easily listen and be influenced by more experienced players that i should not manipulate and tank yet go for trophies. I end up playing normally, get frustrated and quit. Why go through that if you know you ain’t built that way? These so called loopholes are ways to play the game. They offer an outlet for those who have limited spending power but have a desire to win. While i do think everyone has a right to an opinion, i don’t think it’s right to judge others and put them down. I personally didnt like reading that tankers who go for trophies are the most despised. Thats what i just did and the comment came from HeavenAAA who i regularly private message. I take it personally and i find it rather toxic. I wont change the way i play because of what you said but it definitely annoys me. Its no wonder no one wants to come to the forum these days.

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Originally Posted by Sillybq

I don’t think Nordeus needs to change anything nor do i think players need to change the way they play. Players want to have fun and be entertained by a game. I could easily listen and be influenced by more experienced players that i should not manipulate and tank yet go for trophies. I end up playing normally, get frustrated and quit. Why go through that if you know you ain’t built that way? These so called loopholes are ways to play the game. They offer an outlet for those who have limited spending power but have a desire to win. While i do think everyone has a right to an opinion, i don’t think it’s right to judge others and put them down. I personally didnt like reading that tankers who go for trophies are the most despised. Thats what i just did and the comment came from HeavenAAA who i regularly private message. I take it personally and i find it rather toxic. I wont change the way i play because of what you said but it definitely annoys me. Its no wonder no one wants to come to the forum these days.

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I guess you have misunderstood what I meant there. I surely don’t mean you there who aren’t one of those.

What I was referring to are those abusing tankers who repeatedly stay at the same level regularly for the same 3 trophies. Eg. Account started in May 2020 and yet still at level 4, with more losses than wins in under 400 matches with a 170% team, and in the same Cup draw with my level-5 account started in Nov 2020. These are the types most managers find it the most disruptive when it is obvious their team at their level can’t possibly only get 9th in league seasons after seasons.

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Originally Posted by HeavensAAA

I guess you have misunderstood what I meant there. I surely don’t mean you there who aren’t one of those.

What I was referring to are those abusing tankers who repeatedly stay at the same level regularly for the same 3 trophies. Eg. Account started in May 2020 and yet still at level 4, with more losses than wins in under 400 matches with a 170% team, and in the same Cup draw with my level-5 account started in Nov 2020. These are the types most managers find it the most disruptive when it is obvious their team at their level can’t possibly only get 9th in league seasons after seasons.

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Yeah, easily misunderstood as it was exactly what I did. Mate, you have manipulated before. You know the kind of players we face. They ain't active and do they even deserve to win a trophy when they put in so little effort. Our strongest competitors are usually manipulators. I don't like handing trophies to other manipulators as well. If they want it, they have to beat me for it. I hope you mean it when you say you ain't referring to me as it really doesn't make sense in both scenarios for my past 2 seasons to hand my opponents the trophies on a silver platter.

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Originally Posted by HeavensAAA

I guess you have misunderstood what I meant there. I surely don’t mean you there who aren’t one of those.

What I was referring to are those abusing tankers who repeatedly stay at the same level regularly for the same 3 trophies. Eg. Account started in May 2020 and yet still at level 4, with more losses than wins in under 400 matches with a 170% team, and in the same Cup draw with my level-5 account started in Nov 2020. These are the types most managers find it the most disruptive when it is obvious their team at their level can’t possibly only get 9th in league seasons after seasons.

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It really does not matter who you despise. The game rewards inactive players to keep them playing. Have a look at our moderators if you can source them out. Many have had long periods of inactivity judging by their losses or maybe they tanked. Shouldnt they have selected consistently active players for such positions, or at least players who are active in the forum? Moreover, if all your moderators play the same way, wouldnt your feedback be one dimensional, covering only a certain type of users. low level players and high level players do not want the same things leading to a conflict of interest.

The same logic applies for tankers who win trophies. Some are active, some aint but most try for the cup and CL. Many get knocked out along the way because they aint active and solely rely on their quality to win while forgetting to switch teams. Problem can easily fixed but too much opportunity cost. Regular players aint active enough (dont watch enough videos or invest enough money) and do not have enough accounts to compensate for accounts who exploit loopholes (many of which are also spenders).

You mentioned you call out the developers out often but i do not see anything when i look through your historical posts, it is mostly centered on blaming the players. Maybe the only significant one was when you had account issues. Quite coincidental that it took place shortly after your perfect win record was blemished in your previous account. Cant say much as i would do the same.

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Originally Posted by EastsiderSG

It really does not matter who you despise. The game rewards inactive players to keep them playing. Have a look at our moderators if you can source them out. Many have had long periods of inactivity judging by their losses or maybe they tanked. Shouldnt they have selected consistently active players for such positions, or at least players who are active in the forum? Moreover, if all your moderators play the same way, wouldnt your feedback be one dimensional, covering only a certain type of users. low level players and high level players do not want the same things leading to a conflict of interest

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That peaked my interest. I’m a Moderator (easily sourced as I’m active on here). I’ve never tanked nor had any period of inactivity in all my 8 years playing this game. Levelled up every season except one where I finished 9th.
Or did you mean something else by Moderator?

Wow, eight years of continuous playing

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