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Thread: Understanding role of Luck in top eleven

  1. #131
    Champion Tactician's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucian1986 View Post
    Backgammon is a game of skill. If Top Eleven were a game of skill, my abandoned team wouldn't have 33 wins and only 2 defeats this season.... but it does.... so zero skills involved in an abandoned team yet, at lvl 8, it has 5 Leagues won, 2 Cups and 2 Champions Leagues. Or is your argument that most players are less skilled than an abandoned team?

    Also, apart from 6 defeats, every one of those defeats felt like I was cheated.
    This is the problem. Like I said in the past, it is not a matter of winning or losing but how you win or lose. If you worked, you did things properly like a manager should be doing in a game of football managment, you won, good, but if you leave your team abandoned (no management, no maintenance of condition and moral, no training, nothing), but this team even goes to finals of knockout competitions and even win some of them, then this is worrying unless all the opponents were as crap as your team or even worse in state . Another example: you face an active team but the manager been doing what should be crap or shit in the way he been managing his team and also how he set his team to face yours but still he beats you. This is not only worrying but frustrating. If such things happen, then it is understandable why some users say this game is like a slot machine.

    Concerning luck, it is evident that luck should be involved too just as to how it is involved in real life football and what is appropriate for a decent football management game. But, based on complaints here and there, maybe the extent of certain things has gone too far in this game. On overall, maybe 25-30% should depend on luck but if it is 50% like Nik suspect, then this is too much, and it is an explanation why so much shit happened.
    Last edited by Tactician; 1 Week Ago at 08:40 PM.
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  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tactician View Post

    Concerning luck, it is evident that luck should be involved too just as to how it is involved in real life football and what is appropriate for a decent football management game. But, based on complaints here and there, maybe the extent of certain things has gone too far in this game.
    Arguments are on point and I agree fully. Lucky should be involved.

    I lost once in the 16th round of the champions league against a team 8% weaker than me. I was annoyed but both managers were there, both games were tough. He won on penalty. That was a respectable loss.

    In another season, I played against a team 30% weaker than me, lost 2-1 even though the manager was absent. This is slot machine gaming.

    Players should respect all teams, but they shouldn't be praying that their team suddenly plays like rubbish and loses to much weaker teams.
    Last edited by Lucian1986; 1 Week Ago at 08:46 PM.
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  3. #133
    Spanish Forum Moderator khris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucian1986 View Post
    Khris, it isn't just about differences in quality!

    It is about the fact that sometimes, you can very clearly tell that your team is playing at half strength. Whereas your team performed solidly all season, suddenly, against a relatively weak team, your team can't seem to make more than 2 passes without losing the ball while your GK's rating falls to 5 after 10 min or you get 3 goals scored against you in 10 min. Few people are coming on here and complaining that in a tough fought battle, the opponent got lucky on a counter and scored the goal of the game. They are complaining because they either dominate the opponent and still lose or their team fell apart against a team that should have been a minor inconvenience.

    Also, getting from 85% to 110% isn't easy. It requires a lot of work. When you see your team lose sporadically to much weaker teams and abandoned teams outperform, it doesn't feel like skills are involved.
    Ohh yeah, it is a differance of margins and beatability margin of avq, too the scores cap that contain the scores for the better team is the reason why people find the simulator actually annoying. People had the chance to train till a distance and knew that the win was guaranteed with effort, not a -60% in 14th position can draw vs you, when time ago we could easily win abandones low avq teams 14-0.

    Theres a significant differance...
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  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucian1986 View Post
    Backgammon is a game of skill. If Top Eleven were a game of skill, my abandoned team wouldn't have 33 wins and only 2 defeats this season.... but it does.... so zero skills involved in an abandoned team yet, at lvl 8, it has 5 Leagues won, 2 Cups and 2 Champions Leagues. Or is your argument that most players are less skilled than an abandoned team?

    Also, apart from 6 defeats, every one of those defeats felt like I was cheated.
    We've gone over it before earlier on in this thread.
    I've played thousands and thousands of games of backgammon and i've played T11 for 6 years, and the similarities in the way the results pan out is striking.
    Both are games of skill with chance involved so there will always be losses no matter how well prepared you are.
    There is nothing you can do if an opponent throws 4 pairs of 6's in a row say, that's the equivalent of a troll result, but it's how the game works
    If I played the world number one at backgammon over a hundred games I'd be pretty confident of winning around 40 of them, solely on the 'random' factor of the dice. This game throws that up all the time.
    If I played the chess number one a hundred times I'd be pretty confident of losing 100 times because there is no 'random' factor, it's all skill
    I think people expect Top Eleven to be chess but it's actually backgammon.
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  5. #135
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    If people wanted to play blackgammon, they wouldn't be playing a football simulator.

    From what people have been saying on this forum (i.e. the complaints), people don't expect Top Eleven to be like chess.

    Players expect (A) Top Eleven to be a realistic simulator, (B) slightly smaller teams to overcome stronger teams from time to time based on luck and tactics, (C) victory 95% of the time significantly weaker teams after they have put in time and energy to improve their squad.

    Players don't expect (A) good teams to play terribly because the game decided that it would, (B) top flight GK not being able to catch a ball during the game while a 3rd tier GK becomes quasi invincible, (C) inexplicable results to occur between 3-5 times a season, and (D) weak teams to suddenly be able to defeat them no matter what changes they make during the game.

    If Top Eleven made it so that players rarely lost against teams 25%+ weaker than them, half the complaints would disappear. Until then, players feel cheated and they are very much in the right to complain because they have been advertised a football simulator and receiving a re-furbished game of chance.
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  6. #136
    Rookie Ludo_Mansio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berlitz View Post
    If people wanted to play blackgammon, they wouldn't be playing a football simulator.

    From what people have been saying on this forum (i.e. the complaints), people don't expect Top Eleven to be like chess.

    Players expect (A) Top Eleven to be a realistic simulator,
    So I took the backgammon reference as a useful comparison to show what type of game Top Eleven is, I don't think anyone was suggesting you're actually playing backgammon!

    Top Eleven is definitely not a realistic simulator. I don't think it's even advertised as a simulator? If you want something close to a football simulation you should be playing Football Manager, not a free-to-play game that you only really need to spend 30 minutes per day on. So you may be right that people expect a realistic simulator... but they really shouldn't!

    Quote Originally Posted by Berlitz View Post
    (B) slightly smaller teams to overcome stronger teams from time to time based on luck and tactics, (C) victory 95% of the time significantly weaker teams after they have put in time and energy to improve their squad.
    This matches my experience of the game. I occasionally lose to teams I don't expect to, but the majority of the time I beat teams that are significantly weaker. I don't agree with the 95%, I'd estimate that it's probably about 80-90% at present, which seems about right to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berlitz View Post
    Players don't expect (A) good teams to play terribly because the game decided that it would, (B) top flight GK not being able to catch a ball during the game while a 3rd tier GK becomes quasi invincible, (C) inexplicable results to occur between 3-5 times a season, and (D) weak teams to suddenly be able to defeat them no matter what changes they make during the game.

    If Top Eleven made it so that players rarely lost against teams 25%+ weaker than them, half the complaints would disappear. Until then, players feel cheated and they are very much in the right to complain because they have been advertised a football simulator and receiving a re-furbished game of chance.
    In terms of how we lose, the game has to come up with some sort of 'explanation' for each match result. I've no doubt Nordeus could do better in this respect, but at the moment one of the ways the game justifies a loss is a poor performance from the goalkeeper. The animations and the player ratings are just a way of representing the outcome of the game engine calculations, as such sometimes they might be a bit unrealistic. Personally, I think most matches should be watched looking at the statistics tab as that's likely to be a closer representation of what's actually coming out of the calculations.

    I've been playing for a couple of years now and I find that over the course of a season I get the results that my team deserves (without spending real money). I generally do well in the league and win the Cup or CL every now and then. I suspect most players on this forum are in a similar position. I try to ignore the odd random result that comes with any game involving luck and enjoy my longer term successes
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  7. #137
    Greek Forum Moderator nikolgiorgos's Avatar
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    I close temporary this thread before it will be another endless loop of moaning.
    You know, after some point same things repeated (and from same people) , the thread becomes too big and "unreadable" for those who want to understand and get deeper in the game.
    When I 'll have some other example, I will open it again.
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