Understanding role of Luck in top eleven

[Tactician]

you mean there is a pattern like : when one player is buying tokens, odd things happening to him ? Well, I could say that it's a strange strategy for making customers

Some time ago, I was very criticized about injuries thing but they improve it a lot.
* but still cannot see any pattern on that.
** comparing with real football clubs, injuries of TE now are less in analogy - but don't tell that to them - hahaha

Strange indeed. But this is what happened.

[Andrew Nifield]

From the way they have the defense set up, man-on-man and zonal - I imagine there is definitely some form of "roll" involved.

Just as there should be, obviously the better player will win most of the time. Good tactics should put you in a position where more often than not, you are rolling in good areas of the pitch where a win will get you a goal, and winning more of those rolls if you are better,

I only bought tokens in the special offer thing, like about 1 dollar I think. I've never had "strange things" happen to me, not that I though were utterly ridiculous. Sometimes someone's just got your number.

[Tactician]

The title of this game is: Top Eleven - Be A Football Manager.

This game is supposed to be about football management.

It is expected that such a game would be based mainly on management, quality and tactics, and surely not be based on 'rolls of dice'. Of course, some randomness is expected to be there to simulate real life situations.

If this game is about 'rolls of dice', then it is inappropriate. If ever this game functions like as described in the first post of this thread, it is inappropriate as football management simulation game. Many things in the minor section, including formation and orders should be in major section, and the random effect should be in the minor section.

Concerning the randomness in this game, I have noticed a lot of random switches rather than logic switches. That is, when some particular things have been changed in a match, the effect seems more likely to be random rather than logic in many cases. Some of the switches concerned are as follows.

• when a subtitution has been made
• when an order has been changed
• when an arrow has been added or removed
• when a manager has arrived
• when a supporter has arrived

P.S: I have not said that Nik is wrong; I have said that if ever things are like he has said in the first post, then this game is not appropriate as football management game. Only those involved with the programming of this game know exactly how this game has been programmed to function, and also this does not mean that the game is functioning properly according what has been programmed. We, as users, can make deductions based on observations. For sure, when something has been observed to occur a lot, this indicates the high possibility this particular thing or things related to it be as such in this game.

[nikolgiorgos]

when a subtitution has been made
when an order has been changed
when an arrow has been added or removed
when a manager has arrived
when a supporter has arrived

well, that's not luck, it's reactions of the game program.
Usually it's my answer to those who 're saying that there is no game procedure, just fix results from calculations before the game.


@Andrew Nifield

Just as there should be, obviously the better player will win most of the time.

yes, that's the general rule. I 'm just trying to "explore" what happening the rest of the times haha

I've never had "strange things" happen to me, not that I though were utterly ridiculous.

What level are you ? maybe you 'll meet them later. It's called "troll results" but they 're not many. Maybe 1-2 during the season.
Well, I 'm not talking only for troll results but "unexpected" or "unexplainable" , like what you're saying in that post
http://forum.topeleven.com/top-eleve...al-effect.html

[Tactician]

well, that's not luck, it's reactions of the game program.
Usually it's my answer to those who 're saying that there is no game procedure, just fix results from calculations before the game.

This says a lot. Yet some people denied it. I suspect such a thing to be in this game too. I think that the majority of decisions, that is what will be significant have already been decided before the match has been 'played'. It could be due to the suspected 'roll of the dice' like you say, but it could be due to something else or a combination of those things. If it is because of a bad 'roll of the dice', then this is not acceptable. Football is not a game of dice. One thing is for sure though, when the game has not favoured you, that is it has favoured the opponent significantly, there is nothing much you can do as manager to change the final outcome of a match or a round. Tactics, quality and so on, all will fail. The only way to get out of it is to have extreme advantage in quality like +80% difference and above as compared to the opponent, where the given hidden advantages to the opponent won't be enough to make your team lose.

P.S: I do not play with dice. If 'rolls of dice' have a major contribution in the outcomes of this game, I am going to quit this game. I don't support things that are unfair, especially those that are significantly unfair. If I wanted to play with dice, I would have chosen certain board games or casino games, not a football management simulation game.

[Andrew Nifield]

@niko


I'm only going into 6 now. I don't get how you can call something a troll result though. Surely you can only define a game as unwinnable if you can load up the game and try it over and over with different tactics and never win. I've had a result I thought wasn't right, but generally I missed an abnormal amount of shots and they scored their only shot or something. It happens in real life too.

I'm trying to understand what my presence does to the game, whether possesion isn't always a good thing. I'm not saying more possession is always good, I'm debating mechanics

And to Tactician. Luck DOES play a massive role in real life, to say that it doesn't just means that you don't watch football. How many deflected goals go in in a season? How many penalties are given that shouldn't be, or vice versa? How many times does the team get lucky and score a goal after being dominated during the end of the game? How many bad backpasses are there? How many goalkeeper fumbles? Bad defensive decisions by great players? Own goals...I could go on. These are all events you would consider as lucky or not if they happened in the game. As there aren't actually real players playing, you need some form of rolls to demonstrate real life within the game.

You are basically saying you want to take the "luck" out of the game, I'm sorry, but that is life. The "better team" doesn't always win, look at the Premier league this season, and just about any football match you want - luck plays a part. The trick is to manage your team sifficently well so that you are on the right side of attacking rolls more than on the wrong side of defensive rolls more often than not.

If you take some element of luck out of this game, it would be boring as hell. The better quality team would win 100% of the time when people played good tactics, and the same guy would win all the time.

[Tactician]

I'm only going into 6 now. I don't get how you can call something a troll result though. Surely you can only define a game as unwinnable if you can load up the game and try it over and over with different tactics and never win. I've had a result I thought wasn't right, but generally I missed an abnormal amount of shots and they scored their only shot or something. It happens in real life too.

And to Tactician. Luck DOES play a massive role in real life, to say that it doesn't just means that you don't watch football. How many deflected goals go in in a season? How many penalties are given that shouldn't be, or vice versa? How many times does the team get lucky and score a goal after being dominated during the end of the game? How many bad backpasses are there? How many goalkeeper fumbles? Bad defensive decisions by great players? Own goals...I could go on. These are all events you would consider as lucky or not if they happened in the game. As there aren't actually real players playing, you need some form of rolls to demonstrate real life within the game.

You are basically saying you want to take the "luck" out of the game, I'm sorry, but that is life. The "better team" doesn't always win, look at the Premier league this season, and just about any football match you want - luck plays a part. The trick is to manage your team sifficently well so that you are on the right side of attacking rolls more than on the wrong side of defensive rolls more often than not.

It is not about taking randomness out of the game. It is about how much significant it is in this game. If it is too significant, then it is not appropriate.

Also, don't come and compare this game to real life. This game is most probably an 'insult' to football in real life. There are so many things that has happened in this game that is not logic at all to football in real life.

What nonsense are you talking about? The better team (quality-wise) usually lose if it has been managed improperly or used inappropriate tactics (or at least have bad results such as draws or narrow wins), and if it is the inferior team quality-wise, it should definitely lose as there were won't be the extra quality required for covering tactical mistakes and so on. Generally, 'luck' play's only a minor role in the final outcome.

By the way, Leicester did not achieve what it has achieved so far in this season due to 'luck'. There is a lot of work, good management, tactics and so on involved in there. The so called favourites failed due to a combination of poor management, poor tactics and so on. Also, don't come and compare to what has happened once in say 1-2 decades in real life to what seems to be happening like say every season or two in this game.

Many people don't even know what they speak about; they just think things are like this are like that based on their limited knowledge about the subject.

P.S: You have probably thought that I am one of those users here that think that quality is enough to win. I assure you that if it is the case, then you are wrong. I am for tactics and football logic, and not for some nonsense, non-logical things.

[Andrew Nifield]

It is not about taking randomness out of the game. It is about how much significant it is in this game. If it is too significant, then it is not appropriate.

Also, don't come and compare this game to real life. This game is most probably an 'insult' to football in real life. There are so many things that has happened in this game that is not logic at all to football in real life.

I'm sorry, but you seem to be so negative to this game, why even bother playing? It is ONLY a game, just like football. It's not true to life, how could it be? It's a sim - not an insult.

You are making assumptions, based on information you DO NOT have. You don't know the mechanics 100%, as only the programmers do, of this game and how small things can react against eachother.

I'm pretty sure you were the one that started comparing luck in game to real life.

[Andrew Nifield]

well, that's not luck, it's reactions of the game program.
Usually it's my answer to those who 're saying that there is no game procedure, just fix results from calculations before the game.


@Andrew Nifield

yes, that's the general rule. I 'm just trying to "explore" what happening the rest of the times haha


What level are you ? maybe you 'll meet them later. It's called "troll results" but they 're not many. Maybe 1-2 during the season.
Well, I 'm not talking only for troll results but "unexpected" or "unexplainable" , like what you're saying in that post
http://forum.topeleven.com/top-eleve...al-effect.html

When you talk about level, it did make me think. Maybe as every star is % bigger earlier on, the role of luck is a lot less. As the teams level up in quality, luck may, while having the same % effect, have a large impactual effect on the game?

[nikolgiorgos]

Don't stuck to the dices Tactician , I talk generally about luck and yes, luck playing a big part in football and not only.
maybe the only "sport" that has no luck is the chess - haha.

Many times even real football isn't realistic.

I mean, Atletico Madrid with Saul (who ???) gonna send Bayern out of CH.L. ?
or Leicester with Vardy (who ???) gonna win the championship ?
or when my country Greece, won the EURO 2004 against teams like :
Portugal of Figo, Deco and Ronaldo
Spain of Raul, Xavi and Casillas
France of Zidane, Henry, Vieira
Czechs of Ceh, Nedved, Baros
Germany of Ballack, Klose, Lahm
Netherlands of van Nistelrooy, Davids, Seedorf
England of Beckham, Gerrard, Scholes

and don't tell me about tactics (of Simeone or Ranieri). Every one is trying to play with the right tactics.
It's something else, like this Celho the writer is talking about the universe -haha