Does anybody think we can influence the game? (part 2) Let's make some experiments.

[madflo19]

I would do a little change in this point... tactics are chosen randomly as effective or not, so one option can be "visibly better" ,,,

then, win bonus can add a random "little chance" in the same % as attend in terms of increasing chances...

training bonus is part of the tactics, activate one or another or have at least the 10% trained, affect in the live match... is almost like a change of mentality really, despite that each training bonus affect to a few random number of players....

and condition/morale can be chosen as decisive or not when impact the scenario.... and those determine "initially" a path that will affect the simulation as the diff' between 2 AvQs... thats a static fact when the match starts... is a "starting differance" between 2 teams that pre-determines a starting scenario...

hmmm....

Reading Khris is always a pleasure
Maybe not always,but most of times ×D

[khris]

Reading Khris is always a pleasure
Maybe not always,but most of times ×D

[pcmacdaniel]

I would do a little change in this point... tactics are chosen randomly as effective or not, so one option can be "visibly better" ,,,

then, win bonus can add a random "little chance" in the same % as attend in terms of increasing chances...

training bonus is part of the tactics, activate one or another or have at least the 10% trained, affect in the live match... is almost like a change of mentality really, despite that each training bonus affect to a few random number of players....

and condition/morale can be chosen as decisive or not when impact the scenario.... and those determine "initially" a path that will affect the simulation as the diff' between 2 AvQs... thats a static fact when the match starts... is a "starting differance" between 2 teams that pre-determines a starting scenario...

hmmm....

I understand where you are coming from. Tactics however are relative, not random. There are random results, however, over a large sample size those troll results will be statistical outliers.

What's difficult with the tactics is, we have to know what the counters are. Such as, how to do you counter the offsides trap? How do you counter a short passing game? Even if we knows the answers to these questions, we run into more complicated things, like hiding the system and hardening the system.

There are some associations out there that do know how to do this stuff. Usually the Gold 1/platinum borderline type groups aren't this advanced, so when they make platinum, they sometimes go right back down like a revolving door. However towards the top of platinum it's a different story. Add in mutant players to these associations and it's a real nightmare to matchup against them. Fortunately, i've only encountered it a few times. Big thing to watch for is if you make a tactical adjustment and all ratings go green for my team for the ratings immediately after, then followed by a sea of red. When that happens more than once, the opponent has identified my changes from match ratings, statistics and animations, plus knows what to do tactically. Most notable example for me was when playing against Paradise (World #26 I think), when this was happening. My opponent was an upseller, but I had full mutant team as well. It was clear as day, he knew how to counter my orders, and was skilled in figuring out what I changed. All I could do was attempt to hide my system and harden my system, to slow down his reads. Really difficult to play against.

[khris]

I understand where you are coming from. Tactics however are relative, not random. There are random results, however, over a large sample size those troll results will be statistical outliers.

What's difficult with the tactics is, we have to know what the counters are. Such as, how to do you counter the offsides trap? How do you counter a short passing game? Even if we knows the answers to these questions, we run into more complicated things, like hiding the system and hardening the system.

There are some associations out there that do know how to do this stuff. Usually the Gold 1/platinum borderline type groups aren't this advanced, so when they make platinum, they sometimes go right back down like a revolving door. However towards the top of platinum it's a different story. Add in mutant players to these associations and it's a real nightmare to matchup against them. Fortunately, i've only encountered it a few times. Big thing to watch for is if you make a tactical adjustment and all ratings go green for my team for the ratings immediately after, then followed by a sea of red. When that happens more than once, the opponent has identified my changes from match ratings, statistics and animations, plus knows what to do tactically. Most notable example for me was when playing against Paradise (World #26 I think), when this was happening. My opponent was an upseller, but I had full mutant team as well. It was clear as day, he knew how to counter my orders, and was skilled in figuring out what I changed. All I could do was attempt to hide my system and harden my system, to slow down his reads. Really difficult to play against.

"What's difficult with the tactics is, we have to know what the counters are. Such as, how to do you counter the offsides trap? How do you counter a short passing game? Even if we knows the answers to these questions, we run into more complicated things, like hiding the system and hardening the system."


And it is not so simple, cause the truth is that to test it properly, we can't do it only from the viewpoint of our team really.... to disclose all these stuffs we would need to stay in the own skin of both teams, and know, of "all the orders we've chosen" which ones are working, wich ones not... "and when they work" ....

Still, is a challenge, explain initially the funcion of each order and then how to use it, and how to find a solution to play against it.... or "show/prove if this option exists really" because when we talk of counters many times one have a perception of something static... like if X, use Y... but with the formations it doesnt work like this so... what if the orders are the same? what if nothing matters? and the only job one have to do is to find the open door that the game open for us and that allow our team to play "fluid" even if, this door do not have sense in a tactical screen?...... I wanna try to do this tbh xD

will need some tests these stuffs. Ive always believed that the game had a fixed and smaller number of scenarios than what we can imagine really....despite it seems bigger...

[nikolgiorgos]

I understand where you are coming from. Tactics however are relative, not random. There are random results, however, over a large sample size those troll results will be statistical outliers.

What's difficult with the tactics is, we have to know what the counters are. Such as, how to do you counter the offsides trap? How do you counter a short passing game? Even if we knows the answers to these questions, we run into more complicated things, like hiding the system and hardening the system.
.

Hmm, not exactly.
You can use offside trap or long balls in a game and it could works but in another game with same conditions it doesn't.

There is a " Wheel of Fortune" effect for every game. That's my explanation.
Or else there would be a mini manual for orders before many years, you know
if it's attack, you answer with def/counters
if it's normal, you answer with attack
...

[Mitja fc]

When i play zonal my deffence is weaker compared to mtm...
But when i play low pressing compared to high is a game dependable...sometimes team starts playing better sometimes worse so I am keeping it at low now...

Deffinitely is connected with tactic...in some tactics zonal is hetter in some mtm...same goes for pressure...

My opinion tho...

[PricopGeorgeCătălin]

Actually is quite hard to know nowadays but before when we still had that possession penalizing rule you could clearly notice an improvement. There are way to many factors that can decide the final and to run a test by any of us I think is literally impossible as we do not really have the tools needed.

In big lines you can do some tests but a proper one you clearly can't. That's why for example I do not believe in Counter Formation or Tactics, I do believe they might work but is impossible for us to guess if it would work for us or not. Way, way, way, way to many factors at the middle.

One thing I noticed that is working is low pressing vs high pressing, my team usually perform much better with high pressing so I do assume yes we can influence the game all together.

[nikolgiorgos]

Actually is quite hard to know nowadays but before when we still had that possession penalizing rule you could clearly notice an improvement. There are way to many factors that can decide the final and to run a test by any of us I think is literally impossible as we do not really have the tools needed.

In big lines you can do some tests but a proper one you clearly can't. That's why for example I do not believe in Counter Formation or Tactics, I do believe they might work but is impossible for us to guess if it would work for us or not. Way, way, way, way to many factors at the middle.

One thing I noticed that is working is low pressing vs high pressing, my team usually perform much better with high pressing so I do assume yes we can influence the game all together.

I think he means that we don't have any influence during the game.
All are finished 3 min before the match starting.
That was always a myth, a scenario, a case.
Personally I made my own test a couple of years before (with a reserve team, for a whole season) and found out that we can affect (more or less) the gameplay in about 75-80% of our games.

[khris]

Actually is quite hard to know nowadays but before when we still had that possession penalizing rule you could clearly notice an improvement. There are way to many factors that can decide the final and to run a test by any of us I think is literally impossible as we do not really have the tools needed.

In big lines you can do some tests but a proper one you clearly can't. That's why for example I do not believe in Counter Formation or Tactics, I do believe they might work but is impossible for us to guess if it would work for us or not. Way, way, way, way to many factors at the middle.

One thing I noticed that is working is low pressing vs high pressing, my team usually perform much better with high pressing so I do assume yes we can influence the game all together.

Knowing that the players displaying don't matter, because the game always will allow you to have options with what you have in the field....

...the idea of testing, we should consider that, "should not be with the idea to know what give us advantadge" because this doesnn't exist, as every scenario have a pre-set of orders chosen to work....

but... we can test to know "what orders do"... to identify them just looking at the team performance.... and "how to know when a order is chosen wrongly" and "tests about the alternatives we could have, if we see X, Y, Z... tactics failing..." because ..

in a pre-determined way, we are at same point, if we set tactics X or Y the game will give advantadge to the local team or the visitor (and thats why the Table of Counters is not the Saint Grail, otherwise it will always give advantedge A formation vs B, and really very clearly... and this do not occur ..)

but attendling is when you can do corrections... and despite of what you've set by default, in terms of tactics, those that "pre-determined/influenced" the "starting scenario"... if you're enough wise you can identify which order is the "chosen one" as wrong by the simulator, and change it.

Thats the point now, make ppl wise. Because there's not "tactical" side, there's selection of random factors that have a impact in da simulation.

[madflo19]

Having as an example the top100 from asso imo is totally wrong as most of them are there because of their trick skills.Always teams with mutant or very well trained players were a step forward to the normal teams.
Those player are doing all the "hard work".
Off course you can influence the game,as most of times when you or your opponent make a substitution,a goal will be scored in the same minute,but this is just because you trigger an action,not because you necessarily done a good move(that's why I'm 100% with Khris in what he is saying)