Guide: Condition loss and Ability gain in games

[Al Svanberg]

More or less final numbers.

Conclusions:

-Using high pressing, the condition loss is on avg. 24,78%, which is 33% higher than the condition loss without high pressing (which was 18.5%).

-Using high pressing, the gain is app. 27% lower than what the gain would be if the same amount of condition loss was put into training. It seems more or less like the gain is the same as had high pressing not been used. IE, if you use high pressing you will "waste" that condition loss without further gain.

I don't entirely trust the numbers, I am going to spend the rest of the games this season getting compareables without using high pressing and see if they add up with previous conclusions, ie that the condition loss is on avg 18.5 and that the TEF/G is the same as lvl 4 training. I should be able to track the last 6 games, which should give decent compareables hopefully.

[LeManiaque]

So you did not conclude that the loss in skill gain during a match is balanced out by an increase in the following training sessions?

Have you marked anything about skill gain in after match training? For now, we believe the apparent "boost" in TEF for first training after a match is explained by the "bucket" or fractional accumulation of skill points. Not an actual bonus to training.

I believe arrows, passing focus, and man marking all also effect condition loss. For example, try 442 with arrows on all 4 flank positions, and focus passing down one flank. I expect an asymmetry, with the flanks losing more than the middle, and all players on the focus flank losing more than other half. I haven't noticed long vs short, tackle strength, or offside trap.

I also believe these are calculated incrementally, so if you take an arrow off for 15 minutes, the total condition loss will be less than full time arrow, etc. In fact, this might be tool to figure out how many times the program calculates a new play (with new initial conditions) during the match.

[LeManiaque]

Ps- Al, are you tracking white vs grey skill gained during matches? Like, high pressing is leading to less skill points, but those gained include some lower TEF grey skills?

I don't want to believe my 6 seasons of high pressing have cost me every match! Haha. But what good are skills without wins? Hahaha

[Al Svanberg]

LeMa- Have you seen an increase in training after a game with high pressing even if you watched it? Interesting, I haven't thought about that. I will look into it. I have my self for example wondered if there is a slight gain in the first training of the day. Sometimes it looks like it, but I haven't tracked it.
I wouldn't worry BTW, the "loss" is very marginal.

I am also with you on condition loss! But with the exact same arrows and orders except passing, with my team, the result was 18.5% condition loss on avg over 15 games last season, and 24.8 with high pressing over 13 games.

[Al Svanberg]

First of all, I spent the last games last season playing 3 games without high pressing to get a new set of refernece numbers for the test made in post 31 above where I had played a large number of games with high pressing style. The conditions weren't 100% the same, since most of my players had turned 8 stars. But its noteworthy that they got a lot closer to lvl 4 training gainings.

Quite interesting that the percentual gain for the 8 stars, after a sample of 24 games, was almost twice as high without high pressing, and an avg of under 19% of condition loss per game, compared to high pressing and a condition loss of 24.3% per game in a test with a 27 game sample...

Definitely seem like the gain is not increased by using high pressing, ie that a few condition % is wasted. I thought it would be the opposite, but I recon that its perfectly possible that the game like establish a condition loss that is used for ability gain in a game, then after that number is used for ability gain, the extra condition loss for high pressing is just an add on penalty so to speak.

I don't know how safe the numbers are, I think they are pretty good. I have kind of snowed into my teory, could be missing something. Interpreting the numbers wrong, but its the best guess I got. Any thoughts?

[Al Svanberg]

This season I have started to run tests with low pressing style and Man-Man Marking

Here are the results after the first 3 games, quite big sample size since I haven't rotated my players.


Will be interesting to see how the numbers keep up. I plan to rotate more between man-man marking and zonal than I did with High/Low pressing, to get better comparables.

Seems like the condition loss definitely is higher than with zonal marking, but not by as much as high marking. Also seem like there are a bigger diff between players and games which is pretty interesting. Sometimes its talked about how the game engine is so rural and simplistic, just a draw of cards or whatever. But Having played 6 months watching a ton of games with zonal marking, I definitely see a big difference with man-man marking. The players seem to be a bit all over the place lol. It isn't working better for me in the normal game. I wonder when its time to use it, I have only been told to turn it on once by the assistent, late in a game when I lead and faced a monster opponent that was behind, I am betting he turned on hard attacking. Maybe its good to use against hard attacking? I also think it seem to work better with high pressing. Man-man marking and low pressing just seem a bit messy.

But I will keep it up for a big part of this season, and revert when I have more data!

[stinkybg]

So extra condtion from high pressing and mtm is burnt away without ability gain?

[Toxcatl]

So extra condtion from high pressing and mtm is burnt away without ability gain?

Yes, that's right.

[stinkybg]

Hmm was gonna play each 11 1 match a day and play wiht mtm to burn condition. Since league is easy i can play my reserves because i have noticed my main 11 kinds get burn out at the end off the season after playing 2 matches a day. Anyone notice this?

[Toxcatl]

I'm not sure I got it right. You want to say that if you play a whole season with your main squad, 2 games per day, then in the end of the season they don't perform as good as in the beginning?
No, I haven't noticed that, and I don't believe this is true.
And I don't understand why you burn the condition. Did you think they get more skillpoints from that?