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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: Guide: Condition loss and Ability gain in games

  1. #21
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    ^^^
    Yes, there is a real difference. Read through Al's research, he has answered skill gain during a match and training efficiency at different ages
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  2. #22
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    Hi guys!

    Long time, no numbers...

    Here are the first data of the season, this time with High Pressure. Makes a big difference:

    Guide: Condition loss and Ability gain in games-5-matcher.png

    A few things, my 5 star players are adding skill-points, so its quite possible they are gaining 5-7%, but only get 4 listed (I have gone by 1 SP=4%).

    I have listed the TEF for 18-21 y/o, I still do not have good enough data to establish the TEF for 22+ y/o. I will look into that during this season, I am just waiting for some long overdue tokens I should get from an offer I made 1.5 week ago, and then I will power-train Candeais that is 23 y/o and track his numbers.

    So, there are a few reasons for why the ability gain with high pressure looks to be a lot less than without high pressure. Its too early to tell if this is the case.

    The condition loss with high pressure was a little higher than I expected though...

  3. #23
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    Can you determine if the skill gain difference between low and high press if made up in the next training rounds?

    It seems odd that a tactical choice would effect skill gain, would expect it to work on a per minute played condition lost and rating basis. But trading condition for defensive effort can make sense too.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeManiaque View Post
    Can you determine if the skill gain difference between low and high press if made up in the next training rounds?

    It seems odd that a tactical choice would effect skill gain, would expect it to work on a per minute played condition lost and rating basis. But trading condition for defensive effort can make sense too.
    Yeah, my bet is that condition loss will transfer into ability gain with the same TEF. In other words, if you play high pressure you loose up towards 25% -- if not more -- fitness but that the gain in ability will be "25%" higher too. The numbers above look a little low so far for ability gain, but I think its because of small sample size, too high TEF listed for players +21 and the 5 star players not getting credited for the full gain since they are adding skill-points. But like you say, there could be other alternatives.

    I think I am doing about half the season high pressure, and then I will shift to using the conditioning bonus booster instead.

  5. #25
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    The sample size for games played with high pressure is getting bigger!

    Guide: Condition loss and Ability gain in games-6.jpg

    The numbers for the 5 star players are a bit off since these kids are mostly adding Skill Points to new positions or special abilities. Like, the skill they gain will be listed as 0 if its 1-3, 4 if its 4-7, 8 if its 8-11 and so forth, ie notoriously low. But I am gathering them anyway, could be of some interest who knows.

    The gain for the 6 star players are on avg. 25% lower than if the condition loss would be put into 4 level drills. The sample size isn't that small, 20 games in total, so its a bit surprising that the gain is so low. More or less the same for 8 star players.

    The gain for 7 star players are on par for lvl 4 drills, although the individual players are a bit all over the place.

    The avg gain from the games is 12.5% lower than had the same conditioning gone into training, which is a volume weighted number.

    The condition loss using high pressure is definitely -- significantly -- higher than with low pressure. Basically 24.5/18.5=32% higher.

    I will try to double the sample size to see where it is going.
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  6. #26
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    Awesome job as usual, Al!

    By "high pressure" you mean high pressing style?
    Do you plan to test man-to-man marking style? I wonder if it's the same.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxcatl View Post
    Awesome job as usual, Al!

    By "high pressure" you mean high pressing style?
    Do you plan to test man-to-man marking style? I wonder if it's the same.
    Yeah, thanks! High pressing style, not high pressure games..

    I will do man-man next, and then condition bonus. And then mixture some with everything. I thought it would go faster, but I end up missing a lot of games. Need to dump numbers before and after games as well as the result from the game, I also need to remember to turn on high pressing style. And I haven't used it in tough Cup games end. Think I need a sample size of up towards 15 games, which it seems like it will take a season to get.

    I still would be surprised if the gain didn't start going up towards lvl 4 drills territory, but it's a bit low.

    Also a bit interesting from a game perspective to play around a bit with high pressure. It definitely seem like become more vulnerable against counter attacks. Seems like even 2-3 star teams that play defensive and counter get chances and score goals against you every now and then with high pressure. But it's also a bit of a turbo booster for your team. I am working more and more with turning it on at times now.
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  8. #28
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    The condition loss using high pressure is definitely -- significantly -- higher than with low pressure.
    yes and unfortunately this doesn't transferred in gaining too.
    It's just gives some advantage not sure where and how exactly, probably some % in the calculations of the program - don't expect to see that in live
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikolgiorgos View Post
    yes and unfortunately this doesn't transferred in gaining too.
    It's just gives some advantage not sure where and how exactly, probably some % in the calculations of the program - don't expect to see that in live
    Yeah, it seems to be a bit of a Turbo effect, and I wouldn't rule out that the turbo effect has both up and down side, especially that you become a little more vulnerable against counter attacks. I've given up a few counter attack goals against like 30% opponents in the league that it doesn't feel like I gave up before -- but who knows.

    I think some situations start when you win the ball, and that you win the ball a bit more often with high pressing.
    Last edited by Al Svanberg; 12-05-2016 at 04:44 PM.
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  10. #30
    Greek Forum Moderator nikolgiorgos's Avatar
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    extra gaining (and more condition loss ofc) happening in extra time of K.O. games
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