How to train your players properly after the update

[Der_Ryan_M]

Introduction

Hello guys,

So I waited almost 2 weeks after the GK fix update, that someone would come up with a thread like this. And like you already know, no one did. Maybe everyone is still angry at Nordeus because of the update. But they won't change it back. We need to adapt or quit... I wanted to quit, but I can't. So I will try to adapt and I need your help.
Tomorrow the new season starts and we all want to train our players at the beginning of it. Lets put something on!

Well, also the title is a bit controversial and exaggerated. This is not a thread, where I can explain to you every little secret. I wanted to share my experiences training different players after the update. And I want you guys to click on this thread, get inspired and try stuff yourself. And, of course, share your experiences as well. So that we understand, what we must do and how we can train the best way possible.

Also I want to give a shoutout to the 2 Youtube-Channels called "Top eleven Chanel" and "GrubiT11", who also made videos about the new training system and helped me understanding it better.

Lets get started!!


The Basics

What we need to understand with the new training system is, that Nordeus wants us to not only train a few skills and make mutant players. "Mutants" are players, who have really high values in "white skills" (also known as important skills, that affect the quality of a player on the position he plays in, in the simulated games) and low values in "grey skills", that don't matter for him in his position, but also count for his overall quality %.

So basically you could create players with 340% (maximum) in white skills and displayed 1% in grey skills (also negative grey skills actually, but that doesn't matter) while keeping their overall quality fairly normal. If you want to see such players go into the association top 100 and look at the top associations. You will find a lot of players, who are trained like this with the help of multiple accounts.

This is, in my opinion, still possible to an extend. But it is a lot harder to do. You will see what I mean when we get in detail with examples.

What is also important is, that when you train a drill on one specific player, which involves white and grey skills, the white skills will improve twice as fast as grey skills. This is really important and helps us training our players in a proper way after the update! And it causes the training to be less effective... We waste condition on training grey skills, that the player doesn't need. We so need more rest packs to grow him the same amount then with the old system.

Also important - When a skill reaches around 140-150%, you cant train it anymore when you only train that skill. For example: When you train a DC, who already has 140% in both marking and positioning the exercise "Hold The Line", he will gain very slow and after a few more % gain nothing anymore. It doesnt matter if you train hold the line 100x. He will not get any % in his attributes and you just waste your rests. This is why we need to mix drills.


First example



This a player from my squad. He was a youth player at the start of the season and I trained him only with the free condition he gets every day. I also refused to use GK training when it was still possible, because at the time he was learning his SA and it wouldn't have benefit him anyway.

The last days I trained him Hold the Line and Gym to improve his Marking and Positioning, as well as his Strength and Fitness. All of these skills are very important for a DC and are white skills.

2 Days ago he reached 140% in Marking. It then got a lot harder for me to improve his skills with "Hold the Line", I would have wasted condition. I now trained him "Press The Play", which, next to Marking and Positioning, also improves Tackling, Aggression and Bravery. Skills, that are far from hitting 140%. As you can see, on his drills he also further improved Marking and Positioning, while also leveling up the other skills.

There are a few things I don't know quite exactly yet - for example can I train Hold the Line again tomorrow when he looses a star and 20% in his skills? How far can I train Positioning and Marking when also train other Skills, that are white skills and get higher as well? I will test and I want to hear your experiences also.


Second example



Now, lets take a look at this guy. He is my ML since he was 18 years old and while only training his white skills, his grey skills decreased a lot over the course of the seasons. He is not a mutant by any means, but he is a very well trained player with high focus on his white skills.

When I want to keep developing him, I need to carefully select my drills. When I train "Sprint", which increases Fitness, Speed and Dribbling, he will not gain anything and I would just loose my packs. It would have been the best drill for him in the old training, but not now anymore.

However, yesterday I chose to try "Piggy in the Middle", which trains him Fitness, Aggression, Passing, Tackling and Positioning. 3 White skills and 2 Grey skills. In 15 sessions (so in total 90 Piggys, costing 9% condition in average, so 15 sessions cost 135% condition = 9 green packs) he gained 2% in Fitness, 2% in Passing, 2% in Positioning, 1% in Tackling and 1% in Aggression. So he gained a total of 6% in white skills, which are by the way already really high, and only 2% in ineffective grey skills.

So in general, Piggy in the Middle is an somewhat effective training for a ML now after the update, when he has already high skills in most of his white attributes and doesn't grow with exercises like Sprint or Slalom Dribble anymore...


Need your help!

These are my experiences and things I picked up so far after the update. I hope, I could give you a little insight on how to effectively train your players after the update. Remember - training will never be as effective as before, where you could only train white skills and also use the GK training to help you. But it is still possible, to create good players, you just need more rests to get the same result. Or just lower your aim... Before I tried to push my new players to 120%, I doubt I manage to get them there now. I will try to aim for 110% next season and see how I get along with my green packs over the course of the season.

Please try stuff out yourself and post your results here in this thread! Together we will find out the best way to train our players after the bad, bad update.

There are many things I could not test yet or maybe I misinterpret so far. Feel yourself free to correct me.


Cheers and have a good start in your new season!

[nikolgiorgos]

What is also important is, that when you train a drill on one specific player, which involves white and grey skills, the white skills will improve twice as fast as grey skills.

That was before the latest update.
Now a grey skill of 40% gaining a double of a white skill of 140%.
If you have a new player with about equal skill, yes.

[Der_Ryan_M]

That was before the latest update.
Now a grey skill of 40% gaining a double of a white skill of 140%.
If you have a new player with about equal skill, yes.

Nope, with Arnts and The Piggy In The Middle training I tested it. He got 1% in grey skills and 2% in white Skills. Even though Aggression (grey) was the first one that got +1%, before every other skill.

[LOS ABRANTES FC]

That was before the latest update.
Now a grey skill of 40% gaining a double of a white skill of 140%.
If you have a new player with about equal skill, yes.

From my experience I can say you're wrong. What means is the average quality of the drill, not of each ability...
And, but I may be wrong, It seems to me that also the average of class skills (attack, defense, Physical e Mental) in some way influence the pace, since I notice that when I trained speed and form, already above 270%, to my aml.
His Physycal e Mental average was 112% and Long run trained at a good pace, despite it's not top class level. Training pass e dribbling with a top class training, was less efficient, despite they were around 220% (50% less than speed and form) but average attack was around 190%.
I'd need to test some another times with other players and collect some evidence of that, but I'm pretty sure that class skill average has some weight in the new training system.

[TropikThunder]

So, with the new system, what does a fast trainer look like? I bought a couple new players near the start of this season that I thought would be fast trainers based on their age, quality and salary, using the value chart from nikolgiorgos here: https://forum.topeleven.com/tutorial...tml#post500463

1. 19 y/o ST, $3.38 M Market Value, 93% Ability, 33% Overall Quality
2. 18 y/o DC, $3.83 M Market Value, 94% Ability, 33% Overall Quality

Neither of them is a true 1st Class FT based on Nik's standards (max Quality at Level 3 is 34%, max Market Value is ~$5-6 M) but they should be 2nd Class FT.

Since the season started, the 19 y/o ST has increased to 105% Ability (+12%), 36% Quality (+3%) and the 18 y/o DC has increased to 103% Ability (+9%) and 35% Quality (+2%). I don't powertrain but I do train all my players each day using about 30% condition (two green packs) plus whatever skills they gain during games. Does anyone have an opinion whether this increase is fast, slow, medium?

Note: my attack drills are higher level than my defense drills, so I think that's why the ST has advanced faster than the DC.

[GLFC]

Thanks for posting this. Like yourself and many others, I too have been trying to understand the new training systems and here are some thoughts.

Your first example (James Etheridge) suggests that training slows down a lot once certain skill(s) are above 140%. I believe this is more or less what some other forum members have been saying about their experiences. This is also in line with the old training system where a player's growth rate drops significantly once he reaches 140% (8*) overall quality. In your example, both Marking and Positioning are both just above 140% and you point out that training with Hold the Line has become much more difficult. The logical question to ask is, what if the skills being trained by a particular drill are a lot different from each other?

This takes us to your second example (Luciano Arnts). The 5 skills trained by Piggy in the Middle range from 25% to 275% with an average of 152%. He gained a total of 8% from 135% condition loss (9 greens), which translates to about 0.9% per green pack. Having looked up some of my old training data, this is very close to what an 8* FT under 21 used to get from training. I believe this gives credence to the theory that gains from training depend on the average (or perhaps a weighted average?) of all skills being trained under a particular drill.

If this is the case, then one thing you can do is train Arnts with Video Analysis, which covers his two lowest white skills (Positioning and Creativity) along with Bravery. In fact, this is what I have been doing these days. For a given player, I pick the drill that trains one or two of his lowest white skills along with maybe a couple grey skills.

Here is an example of mine after training everyone to death before the start of the new season:



I just gave him 14 sets of Skill Drill, so 84 in total for 63% condition loss. He gained 11% in Heading and 6% each in Dribbling and Creativity for a total of 23% gain, which works out to be an increase of about 5.5 Skill% per green pack. This is more or less equaled to what a 3* or 4* young FT would gain under the old system, despite the fact that this guy is actually 7*. Granted, the lone white skill being trained here is only at 115%, but I do plan to power train the team once the new season begins. In particular, I hope to get some data regarding training gains vs. the average of skills being trained.

In any case, at this point I am fairly certain that a player's growth rate from training is now independent of the player's overall quality.

[Der_Ryan_M]

I just gave him 14 sets of Skill Drill, so 84 in total for 63% condition loss. He gained 11% in Heading and 6% each in Dribbling and Creativity for a total of 23% gain, which works out to be an increase of about 5.5 Skill% per green pack. This is more or less equaled to what a 3* or 4* young FT would gain under the old system, despite the fact that this guy is actually 7*. Granted, the lone white skill being trained here is only at 115%, but I do plan to power train the team once the new season begins. In particular, I hope to get some data regarding training gains vs. the average of skills being trained.

In any case, at this point I am fairly certain that a player's growth rate from training is now independent of the player's overall quality.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing your experience. I will power train 2 players tomorrow. One of them being Etheridge, the other one being another DC/DMC, who has really high strength and fitness already due to GK training I used on him when it was possible.
Also, I'm gonna test with a few other young players in my squad. I will not continue training Arnts, as he will be 22 next season and develop a lot slower. He will be replaced the season after anyway.

I will also share my data tomorrow.

[Der_Ryan_M]

Thanks for posting this. Like yourself and many others, I too have been trying to understand the new training systems and here are some thoughts.

This takes us to your second example (Luciano Arnts). The 5 skills trained by Piggy in the Middle range from 25% to 275% with an average of 152%. He gained a total of 8% from 135% condition loss (9 greens), which translates to about 0.9% per green pack. Having looked up some of my old training data, this is very close to what an 8* FT under 21 used to get from training. I believe this gives credence to the theory that gains from training depend on the average (or perhaps a weighted average?) of all skills being trained under a particular drill.

If this is the case, then one thing you can do is train Arnts with Video Analysis, which covers his two lowest white skills (Positioning and Creativity) along with Bravery. In fact, this is what I have been doing these days. For a given player, I pick the drill that trains one or two of his lowest white skills along with maybe a couple grey skills.

I just used alle the condition left to train and experiment a bit more. You were right about video analysis. It is unbelievably effective for Arnts. Did not think about that before.

Also regarding your player again - Training skill drill doesn't make much sense. Think about it, with it you improve more grey skills (4 x 0.5 = 2) than white skills (1 x 1 = 1), which is bad. Because you increase nothing but the overall % which is just a number. You dont increase the value of the player in his position...

When you train 3 grey skills (3 x 0.5 = 1.5) and 2 white skills (2 x 1 = 2) it would still benefit the player. Everything beyond would damage him more than he gains from it. I hope you understand what I mean with it.

[Der_Ryan_M]

This is the updated Etheridge after giving him about 180 rests. Imagine all his skills from the picture in the first post -20%, because he of course lost a star.

I trained Hold The Line, Gym, Press The Play, Stop The Attacker and a bit of Defending Crosses. You easily will recognize, when its not worth training a drill anymore, because progression gets very slow.

[TropikThunder]

This is the updated Etheridge after giving him about 180 rests. Imagine all his skills from the picture in the first post -20%, because he of course lost a star.

I trained Hold The Line, Gym, Press The Play, Stop The Attacker and a bit of Defending Crosses. You easily will recognize, when its not worth training a drill anymore, because progression gets very slow.

So Etherisge was at 103%/(270), dripped to 83%/(270) when the season restarted, then you trained him as described and he increased to 110%/(277)? That’s impressive! So it’s nice to see players still able to gain skill points even when they are at 6 stars.

Similar, has anyone seen a decrease in skill points from playing games? I played 3 friendlies last evening ahead of the restart and got a grand total of 8 skill points (3 games, 33 player-games, 8 skill points). Same from my cup game this morning, dominated a much weaker team 9-0 and only got 4 skill points for the 11 players. At the end of last season I was getting 15-20 skill points per game with some players getting 6-7 skill points themselves. Anyone else see this and have ideas?