This is not a rant, just me looking for answers.

[SimplySimon]

I do believe you can influence the match with subs, but i do also believe that only to a certain extent. When your formation snd tactics are right, and you have close to 80% ball possession? With the favour bar almost 100% on your favour, how can you draw 2-2 or even lose? That is the contraddiction. Same goes for playing vs illegals. Just doesnt add up. Imho in those 3 minutes you cant change team. The system already calculates how overall the match will be (easy win/battled one/you ll suffer etc) and from that you might influence the going to a certain point ( let s say if you start at -3 value you might recover up to 0, ising numbers)

We're actually saying almost the same thing, and I agree with you. The game engine decides if it will be a tough match before it starts - to an extent this is exactly like real life when the team preparation before a game influences how they perform on the pitch and changing tactics or players during the game can have an impact, but if the flow of a game is against you probably not a huge impact

On the other point, sometimes a good team has an off day. Sometimes a good team has many off days. Arsenal in the EPL always have a better possession than the opposition, but they are a long way from winning the league. Man City have a more expensive squad and arguably better players on paper than Man Utd. Utd will win the league comfortably though.

At the other end of the table, QPR have spent more money than anyone this year and have excellent players. They are rock bottom and have been almost all season. Shows that you can't just throw money at a team (or tokens) and have guaranteed success

Perhaps with illegal formations, if you are going to bother having them they should almost always be beaten. Almost always. Not always. Just like you shouldn't always win if you have have 'better' players or tactics

[SimplySimon]

rookie

I love to be patronised :-)

If you think the results are pre-determined, then just do the other things in the game like training and transfers and don't worry about watching the matches - because if what is going to happen will happen anyway, you don't even need the possession bonus

Whatever the game is like, it's like that for every player

I guess I'm playing devil's advocate a bit with some of these complaining threads because I think there is so much right about this game - and I've played 1000s of hours on different manager games over 20 years

Of course if people want to vent a bit then I guess hitting up the forum can help. Here's mine:

My star midfielder, who's got 10 goals in 5 league games this season, broke his leg this morning in a game I couldn't watch and is out for 10 days FFS!

[cracicot]

It seems to me that what the thread is about is some people wanting the game to work like this:

I have a better team, I win the match

OR

I want to understand exactly how the game works so that I can put out a winning team every time


There are a whole lot of players who aren't on the forum complaining about losing a few games or having injuries that enjoy the challenge of trying to build a squad and compete for trophies in a difficult game. I am one of those who prefers that it isn't just about buying the best players or setting up the right counter formation - although those things can help at times

You are right in that most people want to win, this is natural. I laugh my ass off at the tons of post from people who EXPECT to win because of 1) formation , 2) they buy tokens, 3) team quality is more than opponent.

But there is nothing wrong with wanting to know the ins and outs of this game down the most minute detail in order to win every game. At the end of the day, this is just a game and not cold fusion. If people want to put their effort into this and study it, so be it.

We only hear from the people who want to voice their opinions on this game. We dont hear from the many thousands (LOL) of people who have the same amount of frustration and anger and yes, even happiness. Since they arent on here, they really dont exist? (Yes the cat is both alive AND dead).

Anyways...just sayin

Colin OUT!

[cracicot]

I do believe you can influence the match with subs, but i do also believe that only to a certain extent. When your formation snd tactics are right, and you have close to 80% ball possession? With the favour bar almost 100% on your favour, how can you draw 2-2 or even lose? That is the contraddiction. Same goes for playing vs illegals. Just doesnt add up. Imho in those 3 minutes you cant change team. The system already calculates how overall the match will be (easy win/battled one/you ll suffer etc) and from that you might influence the going to a certain point ( let s say if you start at -3 value you might recover up to 0, ising numbers)

OK, the simple fact is this: you can make subs anytime in the game and IF the game is already pre-determined, it takes this into account and if your DR was going to score in the original pre-determined outcome at the 67th minute, and you sub your DR at the 55th minute, the engine changes the game to reflect this and your new sub is the player who scores. Is it that hard to figure out???

Assuming things are pre-determined. the game knows the results and creates the storyline/commentary to entertain you. All your arrows, formation changes, subs etc are just window dressing and can easily be adapted into the storyline.

I am not saying that the games are pre-determined. I am saying that it is very possible to do this. AND it is most likely easier for Nordeus to do this.

[SimplySimon]

You are right in that most people want to win, this is natural. I laugh my ass off at the tons of post from people who EXPECT to win because of 1) formation , 2) they buy tokens, 3) team quality is more than opponent.

But there is nothing wrong with wanting to know the ins and outs of this game down the most minute detail in order to win every game. At the end of the day, this is just a game and not cold fusion. If people want to put their effort into this and study it, so be it.

We only hear from the people who want to voice their opinions on this game. We dont hear from the many thousands (LOL) of people who have the same amount of frustration and anger and yes, even happiness. Since they arent on here, they really dont exist? (Yes the cat is both alive AND dead).

Anyways...just sayin

Colin OUT!

Schrodinger reference, love it!

The forum holds an incredible amount of info on how the game works and how to do well on it, even down to the most minute details, so I guess this is where study and experimentation can be - and is - done

All I'm saying is that however hard you study the game, there shouldn't be 'one way' to win matches or beat other tactics, and that as long as the game is the same for everyone, it being difficult and even downright frustrating at times isn't a bad thing. In some ways it's more realistic because of that

Final Note: Statistically people are several times more likely to complain about something than praise it, so the balance of posts will never be in favour of those who are happy with the game

It's why I'm trying to strike a semblance of balance here - I think Nordeus are doing a fantastic job with this game AND are working hard to make it better. Of course they will never be able to make everyone happy all the time

[gkassimis]

I love to be patronised :-)

If you think the results are pre-determined, then just do the other things in the game like training and transfers and don't worry about watching the matches - because if what is going to happen will happen anyway, you don't even need the possession bonus

Whatever the game is like, it's like that for every player

I guess I'm playing devil's advocate a bit with some of these complaining threads because I think there is so much right about this game - and I've played 1000s of hours on different manager games over 20 years

Of course if people want to vent a bit then I guess hitting up the forum can help. Here's mine:

My star midfielder, who's got 10 goals in 5 league games this season, broke his leg this morning in a game I couldn't watch and is out for 10 days FFS!

i am 37 yo. i started playing football manager games about at 1992. i remember my first was a primitive game called 1-0. since then i have played almost every fm game i had the chance to find. the rookie thing is a fact. you play 2 months while i play 8. i had the chance to read many threads from the old forum which changed at december. there you could read very interesting things from managers level 20-30. they wrote about predetermined games, the crazy results each seasons last week, how token buyers have more unlucky incidents etc

[Morgan O'Bree]

OK, the simple fact is this: you can make subs anytime in the game and IF the game is already pre-determined, it takes this into account and if your DR was going to score in the original pre-determined outcome at the 67th minute, and you sub your DR at the 55th minute, the engine changes the game to reflect this and your new sub is the player who scores. Is it that hard to figure out???


Assuming things are pre-determined. the game knows the results and creates the storyline/commentary to entertain you. All your arrows, formation changes, subs etc are just window dressing and can easily be adapted into the storyline.

I am not saying that the games are pre-determined. I am saying that it is very possible to do this. AND it is most likely easier for Nordeus to do this.

Non exactly like you say. Changing a DL for another Dl wont change a bad flow. If you are losing 2-0 and make thst sub, you are likely to keep losing. Pre determination diesn t matter apart from what kind of match you ll have engine decides.

My point is that indeed it works like that in real too somewhat, but the problem here is that in t11 it s TOO random.

Otherwise, module changes DO effect the game. Changing your setup at right time might mean difference in win-lose a match. As example yesterday i faced a q43 in cup (im 40) with 4-1-2-1-2 vs his 3-1-4-1-1 and dominated him for 80 mins, being 2-0. Favour bat alwais on my colour mostly and 60% possession. At 75' i switched to 4-5-1 V (which is 3-1-4-1-1 counter) to protect till the end with one more midfielder. By the time of 5 mins needed to register the change the favour bar suddenly went for him for the first time of the match, and possession dropped to 56%. I took the 2-1 which keeps qualification over. So yeah changes can effect game engine.

[Hecke]

It seems to me that what the thread is about is some people wanting the game to work like this:

I have a better team, I win the match

OR

I want to understand exactly how the game works so that I can put out a winning team every time


There are a whole lot of players who aren't on the forum complaining about losing a few games or having injuries that enjoy the challenge of trying to build a squad and compete for trophies in a difficult game. I am one of those who prefers that it isn't just about buying the best players or setting up the right counter formation - although those things can help at times

Its posts like that which make these threads so frustrating. So to me you didnt read the thread properly. Cant we talk here about the issues with the engine without someone telling the obvious, like you cant win them all or things like that. No one said he wants to win them all. No one said there shouldnt be bad luck. But some things are just so ridiculous, that it should be said here.

[SimplySimon]

Ok, baited into one last response. Of course I read the thread properly and responded as best I felt I could, addressing two specific points from the OP as well as other posters. I'll say it once more, the game engine will never make everyone happy because it comes down to what a person can accept as a realistic result - ultimately it's very difficult to simulate the real thing, because it's so unpredictable

Real life examples from English football - Bradford City get to a cup final, team costs about £200k. QPR terrible in EPL, full of expensive internationals and much higher 'quality' than other teams. If the equivalent to those things happens in a game people will scream "it's not realistic"

Of course easy for me to say, my team is doing well. And yes I've only played a couple of months. But that doesn't make my opinions less valid - as I stated, I know manager games well as does my Greek friend above, so I know this is a good one

The devs have done well, created a great game, and clearly try to make improvements. I try to be a voice of reason or to offer a counter point, perhaps people just want someone to say "Yeah, same for me, ****ing stupid devs don't listen, they need to change it/change it back blah blah blah"

So rather than my post ruining the thread, it is the comments heading this way that ruins the forum. There is a vent thread to screw off about all the injustices of the game engine, because these frustrations will always exist

The OP summed it up when he said that no answer will satisfy him, that is true for most complainants I guess

-sign off-

[cracicot]

Non exactly like you say. Changing a DL for another Dl wont change a bad flow. If you are losing 2-0 and make thst sub, you are likely to keep losing. Pre determination diesn t matter apart from what kind of match you ll have engine decides.

My point is that indeed it works like that in real too somewhat, but the problem here is that in t11 it s TOO random.

Otherwise, module changes DO effect the game. Changing your setup at right time might mean difference in win-lose a match. As example yesterday i faced a q43 in cup (im 40) with 4-1-2-1-2 vs his 3-1-4-1-1 and dominated him for 80 mins, being 2-0. Favour bat alwais on my colour mostly and 60% possession. At 75' i switched to 4-5-1 V (which is 3-1-4-1-1 counter) to protect till the end with one more midfielder. By the time of 5 mins needed to register the change the favour bar suddenly went for him for the first time of the match, and possession dropped to 56%. I took the 2-1 which keeps qualification over. So yeah changes can effect game engine.

You are missing the point entirely. I'm saying that it doesnt matter what subs you make, it has no impact. It will make you think it does.

Another thing. You may be able to manipulate possession but possession does not mean you will score or concede goals, nor does it mean you will win or lose. I have seen people with 80% possession lose and vice-versa. So dont give me the argument that you can change possession and that makes a difference.

So all this to say: pre-determined results are possible in this game. You have not proven that it is not happening. I have only proven that it is a possibility, nothing else. I would hate to think that we are wasting our time thinking that we are making a difference in our games while all the time the game was settled in the few minutes before the game actually started.

Who knows? Well, the devs know...

Colin OUT!