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Thread: Testing SA's Thread

  1. #11
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    Good study, Nash. Would you agree that effectiveness of PM might be position dependent? I have a DMR/ DR who uses it often if played in MR, but less it seems in the more defensive spots. He might have been ok taking corner or free kicks, too, only tried a few.

    Similarly I have a DC/ DMC who I've never seen display the icon when in his usual DC spot, but some matches had the icon, or scored, decisive passes or assist from the DMC spot.
    Last edited by LeManiaque; 12-27-2016 at 03:08 AM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeManiaque View Post
    Good study, Nash. Would you agree that effectiveness of PM might be position dependent? I have a DMR/ DR who uses it often if played in MR, but less it seems in the more defensive spots. He might have been ok taking corner or free kicks, too, only tried a few.

    Similarly I have a DC/ DMC who I've never seen display the icon when in his usual DC spot, but since matches had the icon, or scores, decisive passes or assist from the DMC spot.
    DC can't have PM ability, therefore player with PM on DC position doesn't use the ability at all.
    I'm not 100% sure, but I think there is no such thing as effectiveness of SAs, they either work or not. Maybe DMC/L/R has less chances to use PM than MC/L/R (if you meant that I tend to agree), but I believe there is no penalty. The logic is binary here, otherwise it would be unnecessary overcomplicated. I think =]
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  3. #13
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    Attachment 75076

    I will have to say we don't know enough to know trust 100% where special abilities can come into effect. Remember too that devs have started not all abilities are shown, so some could also be used in other calculations without animation of comment.

    In the case of Riyahi... it's easy to think... play often starts from the GK, if he can pass up to DC with good passing and playmaking, that will be a good option compare to usual DC abilities.

    Shooting, finishing, creativity, passing are all grey skill for a DC, but still they will score and create goals in creative ways.
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  4. #14
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    I do mean rate of specialty usage, mostly at least. Just like I think/ expect position makes a difference for rate of shot attempts for attackers.

    Here's one easy way the decision doesn't have to be binary:

    If ML receives ball

    (0-50) pass ball forward (+5 when attacking mentality)
    (51-75) dribble ball 0.X second, then check again (+5 if normal)
    (76-85) pass ball backwards (+10 if defensive)
    (86-90) shoot (+5 if hard attacking)
    (91-94) foul
    (95-99) specialty attack (-3 if out of position)

    Just simple adjustable decision trees, applying % likelihood of attempting an action, with a skill check formula for actions.

    These are sophisticated programmers, I have no doubt the logic behind the game can be more complex than simple dice rolls or random chance. Think about how deceptively tricky programming, for example, an animation of the ball elevating and falling during a corner kick; a bit of physics modeling, might not be so hard. But the dynamic team movement, or marking animation? They could be hand done, but to me it seems like relatively complex mathematics modeling.

  5. #15
    Famous nash123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeManiaque View Post
    Good study, Nash. Would you agree that effectiveness of PM might be position dependent?
    I think, center positions are better.
    My both PM (old and new) play(ed) MC. For sure, my old PM was optical, based on goals/assists much better than the new one, BUT why is the new one on an average rating of 8,9? There are so many reasons, you can't compare, to get a 100% result: maybe my new PM made the same (or more) assists/goals, if he had played instead of my old.
    Maybe Nordeus changed some things about CK, direct assists,... or... Costa is now a legend player, and no one can "beat" him anymore?
    (Costa need one more MoM-title for new record of 23 - and we are at the beginning of week 3. oO )

    PM of my wife and her brother both DMC. They make no CK, but nearly every game, the icon pops once or twice.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeManiaque View Post
    Attachment 75076

    I will have to say we don't know enough to know trust 100% where special abilities can come into effect. Remember too that devs have started not all abilities are shown, so some could also be used in other calculations without animation of comment.

    In the case of Riyahi... it's easy to think... play often starts from the GK, if he can pass up to DC with good passing and playmaking, that will be a good option compare to usual DC abilities.

    Shooting, finishing, creativity, passing are all grey skill for a DC, but still they will score and create goals in creative ways.
    I had a defender, who was 25 y.o., shooting and finishing at his last season were 1%, but he scored 12 goals. So, I really don't know, if the attributes are important.

    Another example: Costa is my best player at shooting, finishing and creativity. He will be the best player I have (had) for a long time, but he is the worst penalty-kicker.
    Kraxner, overall worse at attributes is my penalty-scorer. 4 seasons ago, he started to be my PK, and I don't remember a penalty he missed.
    Both are FK.

    That's why I think about some hidden stats or something else.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by nash123
    Maybe ibangali discovered something, my CK (kicked all from left side) made "only" 7 assists (29 games). I remember, 2 weren't from CK.
    His stats: 158% passing, 166% crossing, 139% creativity and 35% finishing.
    My (new) PM: 211% passing, 172% crossing, 167% creativity and 220% finishing.
    Sorry, my screenshot little big. I bring my 5 players in here:

    G. Waters - right footer - wall sp
    B. Belinga - right footer - fk sp
    E. Aubry - either footer - ck sp (good for nothing)
    T. Zumbujo - Left footer - ck sp
    C. Piarrou - right footer - pm sp

    Belinga is my main fk, I use Waters to test or research and he is not doing bad as fk without fk sp, his '3' assists also from fk. For fk, I was thinking player need crossing, shooting, finishing, creativity but Waters shooting skill make me thinking; am I right or wrong about 'shooting', on the other hand, Belinga was doing not bad last 2 season but beginning of this season when his crossing, finishing and creativity goes higher than shooting he was not doing good on fk, then I add up more shooting skill points and he is doing really good, I lost my cup match with same lvl manager but higher q players (all most all 8*), on that match only score come from Belinga's fk.

    Now ck, Aubry is my main ck, I spend too much time, resources on him but he is not doing good as ck, can't find whats wrong, if you can find it'll help me to improve. This season I bought Zumbujo (reco scout), he was doing not bad but more I adding his def skill point more he miss the ck, don't know what to do.

    Piarrou is my PM, so far good, never use him for ck but as I read your post, thinking to to test him as ck.

    thanks

    Testing SA's Thread-sp-ck-fk.jpg

    Testing SA's Thread-sp-fk.jpg

    Testing SA's Thread-sp-ck.jpg
    Last edited by ibangali; 12-27-2016 at 05:45 PM.
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  7. #17
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    Good screenshots.

    Remember there are other components, the GK, the defenders, and the offensive targets most clearly. Messi will get many FK assists if he could target Sergio Ramos for headers, but he might appear useless if I'm his only target.

    I wonder if these specialties have a few different possible calculations, some testing different skill groups. A headed CK vs one that is controlled and passed in to finish...
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  8. #18
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    My take on the PM is that it shows every time a pass is made that results in a goal. There is nothing special with the pass. It can be a good pass or just an easy one. In close or from far away.

    Ds and especially DCs make very few assists anyway -- how could we know if it's working or not by just going by the sign? Like if the going rate is 3 assists per DC and season, a PM getting 4 would be a 33% increase, but it's so marginal that it's lost in the margin of error.

    My best guess is that the Dribbler and PM ability always are in effect. Like giving each player 20% more in the relevant abilities.

    Nash- I think the abilities matter, but not so much that they have a big impact on individual performances. Like I've played friendlies against someone 30x higher than me a while back (lvl 3 vs 58). The other guys players were not 15x as fast, they are not even 2x faster. But he took control of the game and won like 5-0. Very generally, I think the engine work as everything being equal as a starting point, formation, ability and what not aside. Then tactics, ability and a random factor affects the individual situations -- but not to a dominating extent so to speak. Like, if a striker on a lvl 58 team has the ability 350 in shooting and my goalie has 40 in reflexes -- the result is not that the striker would score 99 goals in 100 situations as opposed to 10 in 100 compared to strikers at the same lvl as the goalie or whatever. The result seem to be more like that the better striker maybe scores 20 in 100 in stead of 10 in 100.
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  9. #19
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    You know (I think) my opinion about individual skills (that is not important for the performance of player).
    Here is a player from a team of my league (RINOKEROS).
    This team is a strong one (all 7* players).
    Malezas has F-K ability and he 's taking those shots.
    As you can see, he has high defensive and M&P skills but low attacking skills.
    But he has talent to that.
    Also you can observe that he has much more success in League games (where oppo players have less quality) than in CH.L. or the Cup (where oppo have the same quality).
    Testing SA's Thread-malezas-1.jpg


    here again, comparing his skills with ahonother player 5*, who is in top5 scorers of the league
    Testing SA's Thread-malezas-2.jpg
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Svanberg View Post
    My best guess is that the Dribbler and PM ability always are in effect. Like giving each player 20% more in the relevant abilities.
    We'll never know that...

    But I think, you're right. I bought a MC with dribbler (wanted to try) last season, who played only as sub. He made 23 games. This season, one of the first games, the main MC suffered an injury at 3', the dribbler took his chance, scored a goal, made two assists and was rated 9,5 (but no MoM, because of Costa ). Since this day, dribbler played every game as main, and his ratings 7-9. Sometimes, you see him at simulation turning 360 degrees, kick the ball wide and run, left-right-left-right and go. I can't say, it's the ability, because I often looked at my dribbler, because I tried to see some differences to the team. Maybe, all other do it also, but I don't see it like that amount.

    My SA rating, based on my own experiences (and of my best friends/wife).

    1. FK
    2. Shadows Striker, Areal Defender
    3. Playmaker, One on One Striker
    4. Defensive Wall
    5. One on One Stopper
    6. CK
    7. Penalty Kicker, Penalty Stopper

    Dribbler, I haven't that much experiences (currently I would rate him like playmaker)

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